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Is subjectivity just a matter of context?
#9
RE: Is subjectivity just a matter of context?
(May 11, 2014 at 3:18 pm)Coffee Jesus Wrote:
(May 11, 2014 at 2:14 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: 1: Did subjectivity versus objectivity exist before some humans came up with the concepts of subjective and objective?

No, there were no instantiations of these properties before language appeared.

Nobody knows how and when language got started.

Homo Sapiens

Quote:The development of fully modern behavior in H. sapiens, not shared by H. neanderthalensis or any other variety of Homo, is dated to some 70,000 to 50,000 years ago.

The development of more sophisticated tools, for the first time constructed out of more than one material (e.g. bone or antler) and sortable into different categories of function (such as projectile points, engraving tools, knife blades, and drilling and piercing tools), is often taken as proof for the presence of fully developed language, assumed to be necessary for the teaching of the processes of manufacture to offspring.[127][129]

Jared Diamond identifies the greatest step in language evolution as the progression from primitive, pidgin-like communication to a creole-like language with all the grammar and syntax of modern languages.[104]

Once humans had language, how long did it take before they came up with the concept of objective and subjective reality? Nobody knows.

(May 11, 2014 at 3:18 pm)Coffee Jesus Wrote: Explain the relevance of this question.

After experts had decided they'd figured language out, they found an exception.

Brazil's Pirahã Tribe: Living without Numbers or Time

Quote:The Pirahã people have no history, no descriptive words and no subordinate clauses. That makes their language one of the strangest in the world -- and also one of the most hotly debated by linguists.

The language is incredibly spare. The Pirahã use only three pronouns. They hardly use any words associated with time and past tense verb conjugations don't exist. Apparently colors aren't very important to the Pirahãs, either -- they don't describe any of them in their language. But of all the curiosities, the one that bugs linguists the most is that Pirahã is likely the only language in the world that doesn't use subordinate clauses. Instead of saying, "When I have finished eating, I would like to speak with you," the Pirahãs say, "I finish eating, I speak with you."

Equally perplexing: In their everyday lives, the Pirahãs appear to have no need for numbers. During the time he spent with them, Everett never once heard words like "all," "every," and "more" from the Pirahãs. There is one word, "hói," which does come close to the numeral 1. But it can also mean "small" or describe a relatively small amount -- like two small fish as opposed to one big fish, for example. And they don't even appear to count without language, on their fingers for example, in order to determine how many pieces of meat they have to grill for the villagers, how many days of meat they have left from the anteaters they've hunted or how much they demand from Brazilian traders for their six baskets of Brazil nuts.

The debate amongst linguists about the absence of all numbers in the Pirahã language broke out after Peter Gordon, a psycholinguist at New York's Columbia University, visited the Pirahãs and tested their mathematical abilities. For example, they were asked to repeat patterns created with between one and 10 small batteries. Or they were to remember whether Gordon had placed three or eight nuts in a can.

The results, published in Science magazine, were astonishing. The Pirahãs simply don't get the concept of numbers. His study, Gordon says, shows that "a people without terms for numbers doesn't develop the ability to determine exact numbers."

So how could the language be influenced by the Pirahã's world view?

Quote:Eventually Everett came up with a surprising explanation for the peculiarities of the Pirahã idiom. "The language is created by the culture," says the linguist. He explains the core of Pirahã culture with a simple formula: "Live here and now." The only thing of importance that is worth communicating to others is what is being experienced at that very moment. "All experience is anchored in the presence," says Everett, who believes this carpe-diem culture doesn't allow for abstract thought or complicated connections to the past -- limiting the language accordingly.

Living in the now also fits with the fact that the Pirahã don't appear to have a creation myth explaining existence. When asked, they simply reply: "Everything is the same, things always are." The mothers also don't tell their children fairy tales -- actually nobody tells any kind of stories. No one paints and there is no art.

Even the names the villagers give to their children aren't particularly imaginative. Often they are named after other members of the tribe which whom they share similar traits. Whatever isn't important in the present is quickly forgotten by the Pirahã. "Very few can remember the names of all four grandparents," says Everett.

There's another interesting bit of information about them.

Culture

Quote:According to Everett, the Pirahã have no concept of a supreme spirit or god,[11] and they lost interest in Jesus when they discovered that Everett had never seen him. They require evidence based on personal experience for every claim made.[5] However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people.[12] Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach.[13]

(May 11, 2014 at 2:14 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: We could recreate the meaning of any of those eskimo words using multiple English words.

Yes, we can recreate the meanings but why didn't English language speakers invent a specific word for "wet snow that can be used to ice a sleigh's runners"? Would we even be using multiple words for this kind of snow if the Inuit hadn't decided that this was a specific type of snow?

(May 11, 2014 at 3:18 pm)Coffee Jesus Wrote: but subjective and objective statements existed even before we had words for them.

Very likely true because there would be no need to invent words for concepts which didn't exist. We have no idea what the first ideas concerning objective reality were, though. I'm guessing that a spirit on the beach is objective reality in the Pirahã world view but their language indicates that they haven't come up with the concept of objective and subjective reality.
Badger Badger Badger Badger Where are the snake and mushroom smilies?
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Is subjectivity just a matter of context? - by Confused Ape - May 11, 2014 at 4:25 pm

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