Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

[bennyboy]

How about the many critters that are inadvertently killed in industrial farming: voles chewed up in tilling equipment, calves which are born and slaughtered to keep cows making milk, frogs, snakes and so on killed with pesticides, etc. Are you sure that a "vegetarian" lifestyle actually has a net positive effect on the number of animals who suffer and die at the hands of humans?

It's one thing not to directly participate, but how sure are you that the effect you want (or don't want) to have on the world is a reality based on your diet?

Vegans don't consume milk for exactly the reason you said - cows are killed in that industry. All of the other side effects you're naming would happen whether people eat meat or not. But because meat farming is less efficient than plant farming, and because there are animals directly killed as a primary effect there are definitely more animals killed when raising them for meat, yes, I'm sure that my vegetarian diet causes less animal death than a meat eating diet. Not to mention all the animals that spend their lives in tiny cages before they're slaughtered for food - at least the animals killed as side effects live natural lives, first.

This argument is like saying "Well, humans die every day of disease and accidents anyway, so there's no reason not to intentionally murder a few more." Just because some death is unavoidable, there's no reason to intentionally add to it.

Keeping in mind that I'm one of the most avid vegetarians here, you're preaching to the choir. However, on both sides, I'm seeing false dilemmas-- and they all involve people continuing to do things as they do them now.

For example, what if there were laws that all cattle and food animals must be free range. A cow grazing in fields will for sure kill fewer animals than a field capable of producing the same number of calories-- because farming harms animals in the soil. So it isn't really the act of eating cows that causes the misery and death-- it's the evils of the industrial meat industry-- feeding perfectly good grain to cattle because it maximizes the price per head, keeping them enclosed because they can yield more cattle per acre, etc.

But what about a family-run small farm, like used to exist in the US? They might raise a few cattle on their field, a few pigs on garbage and leftovers, for a total of maybe a few deaths per year-- and with the living animals having reasonably good lives. Take the amount of "vegetarian" food you eat per year right now, with industrial food production facilities, and I'd wager you are indirectly responsible for at least as many deaths.

I'm also vegetarian. But in order to make a good argument for vegetarianism, I think we have a responsibility to look a little deeper into our total effect on the animal world (including ecosystems), and not just say, "I'm eating broccoli-- I saved a cow." That's not accurate.