Alcoholism

[Pippy]

Hey,

As always I am happy to follow up, and apologetic if I am anything less than charming.

So a recovered alcoholic who fathers two children, only one of which turns to alcoholism means it's genetic? Sorry Pippy, but until actual evidence turns up I'm not convinced.

You always bite on the easy ones. I leave those for the lampreys, and surely they don't let lampreys into Cambridge. Unless attached to sharks...

Pippy sounds like the fat-ass who crys their obesity is genetic and a disease.

I suppose, but I would want to say it is different. One, an unhealthy relationship with food is different, as food is a need and stimulants and mind alter substances/experiences are certainly wants. Not needs at the least...

An alcoholic may be predisposed to alcholism but it ain't gonna happen if you don't put the alcohol in them.

Very true, but alcoholism is actually a personality disorder, and they would still display whatever other symptoms and ramifications of that problem. It is not alcohol, or even addiction that is the disorder but a predisposition to lend yourself to addictive behavior. Or moreover some problem, that I beleive real and tangible, that as a side effect causes us to behave in a manner that easily adapts and ritualizes addictive behavior of all kinds. So yes, in a sense you need alcohol to be an alcoholic, but in another you do not. I am an alcoholic (a word i try not to use for clarity) and I haven't had a drink in years. I am an addict though.

So, as sucky as it sounds, pippy, it is a matter of a weak-will. I say this because I too, have a highly addictive personallity. Clinically diagnosed? No. I don't need a buncha white-coats to tell me that, I know it. I smoke cigarettes like a freight train. I'm psycologically addicted to marijuana.

I hear and appreciate that. I am not whining or asking for pity. I am calm about things. It is certainly not an excuse. Let me make that clear, that I don't want any less responsibility for my actions because I feel that I have a mental disorder. It's not the only one. I am also retarded, but that is another story... It's not an excuse, but it is real.

It's a myth propagated by the people who founded AA.

Bill W himself!?! How could he? What if, by chance, AA was founded as a means to have like minded community try to solve it's own problems and alleviate suffering? That a simple program could help people overcome addiction and lead better lives? I am always cast as the conspiracy nut, but you've decided AA is a force of evil? You make me smile Eilo. I can say that much.

These vague, non medical symptoms do NOT a disease make. It's an addiction, and in many cases a symptom of mental illness and depression.

Oh, oh, what about restless legs syndrome? The fact that it's a symptom of mental illness is somewhere we agree. What if, for the sake of naming something to try to fight it, we let people name that mental illness (because it's just a name game in there anyways) alcoholism, or more appropriately Addictive Personality Disorder.

It is also not genetic, it's hereditary. What I mean is that there is no biological agent that passes on alcoholism from a parent to a child, which would be genetics.

Ah, I think you've dropped the ball. If I am not mistaken, and I may be, hereditary traits HAVE to be genetic, don't they? If my Mom teaches me English as my first language, is that hereditary? If my hair is red, is that hereditary? Would you argue that red hair has no genetic distinction? I rebut that something cannot be hereditary and not genetic. And use your strange logic to explain then how my father became an alcoholic when neither of his parents, none of his grandparents and no uncles, aunts or cousins exhibited the extreme of the human condition labeled as Addictive Personality Disorder. As far as we can tell, we are the only two. Clearly someone in the line was though, and everyone had it, but like other genetic snippets, it is either on or off. If you're arguing somehow that addictive personality disorder is learned, can I say gayness is a choice yet? I agree than an addictive personality is learned, yes. But there is a genetic component that is (frustratingly) named addictive personality disorder, signifying that it is a disease. Such as people can be both obsessive and compulsive as human traits, but can also have an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

I hate AA. It has a monopoly on helping Alcoholics when it has done nothing to significantly improve the rate of people quitting.

Gosh, you really charm me. It just makes me smile, I don't know why. You hate AA. That's... cute. They have a monopoly on helping alcoholics... Seriously? So if I try to get my buddy to sober up, they may sue or worse? How do you accuse someone with cruelly trying to help too many of the people? It's like they have a monopoly of picking off warts. How dare they!

And you're gonna really say they haven't helped anyone? Your Ma, my dad, literally thousands and thousands of people I've met in many state and a province being at those silly meetings... But no, it's a religious conspiracy to sneak god in somewhere else, those bastards will stop at nothing.

And I don't care if it is 5%. Trying to heal people is a pretty high calling. I respect that very much. What harm are they doing in trying Eilo? The coffee is free you know.

but I'll be damned if I was going to pray to the police.

That's kind of what I thought of too, but I meant it a different way. The higher power thing is about dissassociation, it can be any colour or shape, and I don't think they ask you to pray too it. Certainly the North Carolina AA meetings were a touch more christian than the Canadian ones (being not at all, except that the church was the only place nice enough to donate the space), but still...

I am not a power higher than myself. I am myself.

You are both, it's a part of being human. Read Descartes until you doubt everything, then get back to me.

Doorknobs and nothingness are also not higher powers

Nor is some Grumpy Old Man in the Sky if were being picky here. Those were a couple of examples of higher powers disbelievers, agnostics and atheists I've known chose.

I am not comfortable with trying to trick myself (the self trickery called faith) into believing something is of greater importance and sentience than it really is.

But don't you get it? You can try to control the placebo effect, in a sense. Belief is strong, and can be used for good as well as bad, can't it? Can we carefully use it for good, quietly, over here? Or do the atheists say nay?

I suppose you guys make no distinction between good, constructive belief and bad, destructive belief...

I still stand my ground. I have a lot of little holes in my brain. Some are from (da da da) birth trauma, some from a life of drug abuse. Some learned (bad birth counts), and some others inherited genetically. They are not excuses, I cannot repeat that enough. I deal with my own problems, and don't want to have to talk about them. But to deny that I have a genetic predisposition to addictive behavior, to a point where it may or may not count as a mental disorder, would make if far more difficult for me to try to deal with and recover from negative lifestyle choices (how much MDMA can I take before I pass out?)
I vote both.
That was a good one. Thank you all very much for your time. I love everything. Too much MDMA it seems...

The,
-Pip