Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: June 14, 2024, 1:29 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Cosmological Argument and Free Will
#47
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will
(September 9, 2014 at 2:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:
(September 9, 2014 at 1:32 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: If naturalism is true, and thus determinism, then [within the context of this argument] the 'beginning of the universe' is in fact not the 'beginning' because the cause of the beginning of the universe would be an effect of a previous cause.
Correct. Material antecedents would mean that the big bang is not the absolute beginning of the Universe, though it may still be taken as a discontinuity so radical that we cannot explain it, because we can find no laws which we can extrapolate backwards through this discontinuity.

Quote:This would go on and on into infinite regress and the question would still remain, what is the first uncaused cause? This is a question unanswerable by determinism.
This is not even a logically sound question. It's like asking, "Can an omnipotent god create beings more powerful than her?" A "first" cause already presumes that you're talking about a finite starting point in time.
It is then an issue of explanatory power. Within the context of our conversation, determinism and naturalism offer no explanation for the beginning of the universe.

An eternal being fits the criteria of an 'uncaused first cause' and does have explanatory power.
(September 9, 2014 at 8:15 pm)whateverist Wrote: Excuse me but has anyone shown that it is even possible that anything can always have existed which could then serve as a first cause?
If something exists it either began or always has existed.
The universe exists
Therefore the universe either began or always has existed.

If the universe has always existed then it must be shown to be.

If the universe began, and if we accept the causality principle then: the best explanation to the cause of the universe is an uncaused first cause. In other words, the existence of the universe makes the existence of an 'uncaused first cause' possible. This is what the cosmological argument asserts.
(September 9, 2014 at 8:15 pm)whateverist Wrote: Pointing out the trouble for our concept of cause and effect if no such being existed is far from showing that such a being could exist. It may just be that our concept is incomplete or flawed.
Would you accept the argument: Of course God exists, if He cannot be proven to exist it's only because our concept of Him is incomplete or flawed?

If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?



Reply



Messages In This Thread
The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 2, 2014 at 7:51 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 2, 2014 at 8:03 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 2, 2014 at 8:10 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 2, 2014 at 8:46 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 2, 2014 at 2:13 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Whateverist - September 3, 2014 at 3:38 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Diablo - September 2, 2014 at 9:37 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 2, 2014 at 9:52 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Diablo - September 2, 2014 at 10:26 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Chas - September 15, 2014 at 10:41 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 2, 2014 at 10:41 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Diablo - September 2, 2014 at 10:46 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 2, 2014 at 10:56 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Diablo - September 2, 2014 at 11:13 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 2, 2014 at 12:04 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Diablo - September 2, 2014 at 12:08 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 2, 2014 at 12:20 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Diablo - September 2, 2014 at 12:29 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Simon Moon - September 2, 2014 at 11:15 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Drich - September 2, 2014 at 11:36 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Neo-Scholastic - September 2, 2014 at 12:25 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Diablo - September 2, 2014 at 2:31 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 2, 2014 at 3:00 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 2, 2014 at 4:04 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Dawsonite - September 3, 2014 at 10:00 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Whateverist - September 3, 2014 at 10:04 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Dawsonite - September 3, 2014 at 10:11 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Dawsonite - September 3, 2014 at 10:17 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Dawsonite - September 3, 2014 at 10:38 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Little lunch - September 3, 2014 at 6:42 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Angrboda - September 2, 2014 at 6:02 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Michael - September 3, 2014 at 3:08 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 3, 2014 at 8:11 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by bennyboy - September 3, 2014 at 9:49 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 3, 2014 at 1:26 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Little lunch - September 3, 2014 at 9:04 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by orangebox21 - September 7, 2014 at 9:35 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by suneel - September 8, 2014 at 5:59 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 8, 2014 at 6:16 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Madness20 - September 8, 2014 at 7:46 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by orangebox21 - September 9, 2014 at 1:32 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 9, 2014 at 2:20 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by orangebox21 - September 14, 2014 at 3:16 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by genkaus - September 14, 2014 at 4:39 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by orangebox21 - September 15, 2014 at 11:20 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by genkaus - September 16, 2014 at 3:19 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Whateverist - September 9, 2014 at 8:15 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Neo-Scholastic - September 14, 2014 at 5:26 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 14, 2014 at 5:06 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Angrboda - September 14, 2014 at 6:22 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 14, 2014 at 8:47 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 15, 2014 at 8:11 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 15, 2014 at 3:22 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Neo-Scholastic - September 15, 2014 at 6:02 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Mudhammam - September 16, 2014 at 7:07 am
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by orangebox21 - September 19, 2014 at 3:25 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by genkaus - September 19, 2014 at 10:52 pm
RE: The Cosmological Argument and Free Will - by Little lunch - September 19, 2014 at 6:24 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Free will and the necessary evil Mystical 133 17497 December 16, 2022 at 9:17 pm
Last Post: Jehanne
  Free will and the necessary evil Mystical 14 1671 November 11, 2022 at 5:34 pm
Last Post: Ahriman
  Objection to Kalam Cosmological Argument mrj 5 778 January 20, 2020 at 8:54 pm
Last Post: Jehanne
  The illusion of justice, sin and free will dyresand 17 4478 October 15, 2015 at 10:42 pm
Last Post: Pyrrho
  C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality Jenny A 15 6308 August 3, 2015 at 4:03 pm
Last Post: Jenny A
  The free will argument demonstrates that christians don't understand free will. Esquilax 91 18306 May 2, 2014 at 6:41 pm
Last Post: Ryantology
  The New Heaven and Free Will Inconsistency jdrubnitz 10 3745 March 7, 2014 at 11:38 am
Last Post: truthBtold
  The Problem of Evil, Free Will, and the "Greater Good" Venom7513 38 14418 May 3, 2013 at 7:54 pm
Last Post: ThomM
  How Free Will and Omniscience Works idunno 119 42308 September 10, 2012 at 1:49 am
Last Post: Angrboda
  Free will and the Christian God GodlessGirl 17 7594 September 3, 2012 at 2:10 am
Last Post: Minimalist



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)