Thunderf00t vs. Feminism

[Esquilax]

In the western world, I don't think women are oppressed at all and all I have seen them do is complain about video games. So yes I do think the two sets of problems are equal.

There are more insidious forms of inequality than just outright oppression, like, say, the wage gap between men and women, for one. Or the fact that harassment is still commonplace in many areas. In fact, what I find particularly interesting is that I'm sitting here watching you fall into the same kind of logical fallacies you'd be chastising a christian for using, like the argument from ignorance: "I haven't seen it, therefore it doesn't exist," or the deeply simplistic view of oppression you're espousing.

Well I think it is. A woman can do anything a man can do and actually get special treatment in certain situations.

A woman can do anything a man can do... while getting paid less, in a society that in many ways commoditizes her looks, keeps her body open for public comment at all times, and can treat her in ways that we wouldn't think of treating a man. It always surprises me when men designate themselves the arbiter of what women's experiences are, while at the same time dismissing the complaints they actually have from their own lived experiences to do it. Why would you know better than them, especially when you're discarding data in the process?

I'm not strawmanning you, that is exactly what you were implying. Unless you were suggesting that it was societies fault that women get more custody? Oh and don't talk down to me like that, is that ok dad?

I am exactly saying that it's society's fault: social constructs like gender roles are built within societies, and they are built from both the interactions of the individual members and the circumstances they find themselves in. The origins of this can't be drawn to a single gender, or even a single time period, and when you leap from the observation that such gender roles exist to a strong statement that it's "men's fault" based on nothing within my post that would hint at that, then I'm sorry, but you are being ridiculous.

So there is a cause, you just don't want to say it.

The cause is cultural, not gendered. It was probably even factual at one time; human progress is a continual straight line, not a stratified set of eras where we instantly forget the past the moment we enter a new one. No doubt there was a time in the past where it was beneficial for women to take on that nurturing role, and I'm willing to bet that this gender role finds its origins in that simple practical observation. But somewhere along the way it got ingrained and became "the way it is," even when the reality no longer necessarily fitted that. We're all human, we're conditioned to accept social norms that we're brought up with as static, and changing them is hard. This isn't about apportioning blame, just about recognizing that ancestral thinking can really get soaked into us without us realizing it.

But I'm interested, now: what do you think is the origin of women getting preferential treatment in custody hearings?

Then what is if not favouritism?

Subconscious reinforcement of antiquated gender roles. Hell, sometimes even just conscious reinforcement; we've got a lot of religious people out there for whom "traditional" womanly roles are appealing, and if they're judges they're sure as hell going to decide their cases based on their personal opinions.

But the other question that comes to mind, for me, is why would it be favoritism? What sequence of events or thinking would lead to this kind of widespread favoritism for women in this specific section of the legal system? Seriously, if you've got an answer for that I'd like to hear it, as I suspect our positions might not even be that far off, just phrased differently.

And again, sorry dad.

No, I'm sorry. Regardless of the content of your argument there was no reason to be condescending. That's my bad.

What is the actual objection to sexual content?

Objectification. Just having sexual content, or sexual characters, isn't bad on its own. It's when that content is demeaning or reduces the characters to nothing but body parts posing for the male/female gaze that it becomes problematic.

Esq, get your head out of the sand, what your arguing doesn't reflect reality. It does not because if these people were a tiny fringe like you think then were was the swift condemnation of their words and actions by the majority? You know I have seen reasonable feminists speak, and I think sexism is disgusting, but when I see these moderate feminists speak it seems that they are more marginalized then these rad fem whackos. The fact is that these rad fems say they are in favor of gender equality, butyet actively try to silence any dissent to their views. In fact you have more reason to argue against them then I do seeing has how every time you argue like you have been here they make you out to be a lair. Also thinking about it doesn't even matter if radicals are the majority are not for even of they are they seem to pack far more political influence then the more moderates brands. Saying this as a objective outsider looking in it really doesn't look like moderates run the show.

I agree: the radfem movement is ridiculous, aggressive, overbearing and often transphobic. I dislike them, they do not represent my opinions, nor should their movement be given the oxygen of public discourse. But I can't stop them from saying stupid shit, and there are better things to do than waste time dealing with them; christians don't need to spend all their time dealing with the Westboro guys, why should any other group have to devote the majority of their energies fighting with the extremist ends of their own spectrum when that time could be better spent attempting to build a better representation of the movement through positive action? The former path leaves you looking like a group of insular, infighting children, while the latter at least gives you some form of good example to point to, and it gets your work done in the meantime.

The loudest voices aren't necessarily the most numerous, and my head certainly isn't in the sand: feminism can be a shitshow at times, there are a whole bunch of idiots that I'd really rather would calm the fuck down, but I hope you can see why just doing what I think is right would be more appealing than sticking my head in that tank full of rabid voles time and again just to clean up individual flecks of vole shit, right?