Theistic morality

[rjh4 is back]

If the Bible does say that slavery is acceptable, how is that good? How can you defend that?

Don't we need to first establish whether or not the Bible says that slavery is acceptable and in what sense is it acceptable?

Then don't we need to discuss whether or not the Bible says that slavery is good? (Of course, we have not even begun to establish what is meant by "good" as our definitions of that word may differ significantly.)

My position is that just because certain things are tolerated (accepted) doesn't necessarily mean they are good nor does it mean that the ones tolerating the behavior are not good. In our society, I could walk up to someone and berate them publicly for no good reason and be free to do so under the law if I stay within certain limits (i.e., such behavior is allowed or tolerated or accepted by society) but that doesn't necessarily mean that doing so would be "good" or that the society is "not good" because such behavior is tolerated.

Assuming you accept such behavior is not good, do you think that makes our laws "not good" because it allows/tolerates/accepts such behavior?

I don't think so and likewise I do not conclude that the Bible and God are "not good" just because certain behaviors are tolerated by them.

Also, could you respond to the question which this thread first asked: namely, whether God commands things because they are good according to some independent moral standard, or whether things are good because God commands them, in which case goodness is arbitrary. To put it another way: if God commanded you to beat up old grannies, would you consider that 'good', and would you do it?

Seems like loaded questions to me. But in an attempt at productively furthering the conversation, I will try to respond.

I do not think that God commands things because they are good according to some independent moral standard. I come to this conclusion because my presuppositions are that God exists and that the Bible is the Word of God and there is nothing in the Bible indicating that God is subject to some independent moral standard.

I think God and how He has told us through the Bible to behave is the standard by which human behavior is to be determined as "good" or not. You seem to conclude that given such a position that this makes goodness arbitrary. I don't agree. God's nature is what it is (I of course am speaking from my point of view) and His commands will be in accordance with His nature. Your conclusion would be like saying that God's nature is arbitrary but I see no basis for necessitating such a conclusion.

As for God commanding me to beat up grannies...I would have to know more to answer the question. How did God command me? What form was the command such that I know it was from God? I would not trust in a dream or even someone like the pope (I'm not Catholic) telling me that God commanded such a thing, nor would I trust someone coming to me and claiming to be God since to me such a commandment would not comport with how the Bible tells me to treat others. So to me the question is kind of silly because I cannot even fathom a situation where I would receive such a command and consider it from God.