Theistic morality

[The Omnissiunt One]

[quote='rjh4' pid='80369' dateline='1279220646']
Don't we need to first establish whether or not the Bible says that slavery is acceptable and in what sense is it acceptable?

Then don't we need to discuss whether or not the Bible says that slavery is good? (Of course, we have not even begun to establish what is meant by "good" as our definitions of that word may differ significantly.)

My position is that just because certain things are tolerated (accepted) doesn't necessarily mean they are good nor does it mean that the ones tolerating the behavior are not good. In our society, I could walk up to someone and berate them publicly for no good reason and be free to do so under the law if I stay within certain limits (i.e., such behavior is allowed or tolerated or accepted by society) but that doesn't necessarily mean that doing so would be "good" or that the society is "not good" because such behavior is tolerated. [/quote]

It seems fairly obvious that saying beating slaves is acceptable is a tacit acceptance of slavery. How could it not be? As for its being good, you would've thought that the Bible, being a moral guide, would have something to say on the issue. Yes, tolerance doesn't imply approval, but in a moral guide it probably would.

[quote]I do not think that God commands things because they are good according to some independent moral standard. I come to this conclusion because my presuppositions are that God exists and that the Bible is the Word of God and there is nothing in the Bible indicating that God is subject to some independent moral standard.

I think God and how He has told us through the Bible to behave is the standard by which human behavior is to be determined as "good" or not. You seem to conclude that given such a position that this makes goodness arbitrary. I don't agree. God's nature is what it is (I of course am speaking from my point of view) and His commands will be in accordance with His nature. Your conclusion would be like saying that God's nature is arbitrary but I see no basis for necessitating such a conclusion.[/quote]

So, you are effectively saying that God's nature is not arbitrary, but you provide no argument for this position. If God is not created (as he's surely not), then his attributes serve no purpose; they just are. Therefore, how could they not be arbitrary? Basing morals on such an assumption seems dangerous to me.

[quote]As for God commanding me to beat up grannies...I would have to know more to answer the question. How did God command me? What form was the command such that I know it was from God? I would not trust in a dream or even someone like the pope (I'm not Catholic) telling me that God commanded such a thing, nor would I trust someone coming to me and claiming to be God since to me such a commandment would not comport with how the Bible tells me to treat others. So to me the question is kind of silly because I cannot even fathom a situation where I would receive such a command and consider it from God.[/quote]

Assuming that we could verify it to be God's command to a degree of probability as near to certain as possible -say, if a huge crowd witnessed God poking his head down and making the command, and if the incident were caught on camera- then would you do it? Of course, your reasons for trusting the Bible as God's commands seem less than watertight, and we've already seen that God tolerates slavery in the OT, so I'm surprised that you'd be so sceptical if he did. Nevertheless, it's a hypothetical situation, so whether you can fathom it or not, what would you do?

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[quote='tackattack' pid='80334' dateline='1279256122']

[quote]If I had only "is something good because God commands it, or does God command it because it's good", I would choose the former. Here's my reasoning as a Christian. I know what's best for my children because I have a better perspective on life. The same applies to the author or the universe. His perspective and power should be respected enough to assume his intentions have, at the least, a beneficial outcome to his creations in the long term. I personally in ther here and now find no problems with any of God's guidance, and see nothing harmful or "evil" to me that would lead me to believe his intentions are anything other than long term and good and healthy for us.[/quote]

Ah, but how do you define 'harmful' and 'evil', given that these are moral concepts, which according to you are defined by God's nature? Your reasoning is circular: you trust God's commands because he's all-good, and you think he's all-good because his commands seem good.

[quote]To answer your other question "if God commanded people to kill their grannies, should they do it? Would it be good?" Well that would depend on whether it's verified as God's commandment. I'll assume it has been verified and say yes people should. Do I think I could, no it disagrees too much with my own personal morality. If it's a verified commandment (no kidding burning bush backed up by the holy spirit and scripture and the sacrement of confirmation) from God, then we should do it, but I'm sur ethere would be a lot of discussion about it first. Would it be morally right to me, with null circumstances I'd say no.[/quote]

There we have it, then. Your morality is not based on God's commands, when the push comes to shove.