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Is free will real?
RE: Is free will real?
(December 26, 2014 at 4:40 am)bennyboy Wrote: Really? Here I was, thinking the universe is made up of nothing but tiny little particle/waves vibrating in space. It seems to me that in order to perceive a flat surface, one must take literal physical reality (the collection of particles, none of which are flat, and no combination of which are flat), and imbue it with ideas. And what are these "objects" of which you speak? Those illusions by which I interact with an infinite sea of QM particles?
(December 26, 2014 at 8:54 am)Rhythm Wrote: Is there some conflict between a flat surface and things being made out of particles that the world is unaware of? "Flat" simply refers to a particular arrangement of particles that we are capable of observing. A tabletop doesn't need me to imbue it with anything to be flat, it's just a description, not an incantation. It's an accurate description too, and so is yours. Tabletops are flat...and made out of particles. On that last point, our eyes are insufficient observation equipment. While we can perceive the one with our native set...the other requires assistance. Neither are wrong - but neither depend on anything being imbued - by us, to the table. You keep discussing what we do with the idea of something and then using that to comment on those things that the ideas -refer to-. We can imbue the -idea- of something with a bunch of things. Imbuing -the thing- to which our ideas refer is a little more difficult.


(LOL, You mooter! Wink )
Exactly. There's no conflict in describing objects by their fundamental constituents, on the one hand, and the appearances they take in "Macro-world" on account of their configurations.

"one must take literal physical reality... and imbue it with ideas."

So what? Our ideas (should) strive to define reality, intellectually, not create what isn't actually there. If I tell you to place the cup on the flat surface, I'm distinguishing a definite property of an object (such as a table) a) on a large scale form that particles and forces comprise to make, and b) as it is distinctly perceived from other surface properties, such as rough, wavy, curved, etc. ones. Once again, free will does not share even this utilitarian benefit when the concept is examined but for a moment, and human freedom, while it is like a flat surface in the sense of b), is not the case in the sense of a).

"And what are these "objects" of which you speak? Those illusions by which I interact with an infinite sea of QM particles?"

Illusions, no. There is an infinite sea of QM particles that interact with each other, due to physical laws, and evolve, in some instances into larger and larger objects that, also due to physical laws interact with each other such as in having this conversation.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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Messages In This Thread
Is free will real? - by The_greatest_river - December 15, 2014 at 4:15 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Tartarus Sauce - December 15, 2014 at 4:46 am
RE: Is free will real? - by ManMachine - December 15, 2014 at 5:22 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 15, 2014 at 1:20 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Anomalocaris - December 15, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 15, 2014 at 1:40 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 15, 2014 at 1:46 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 16, 2014 at 9:40 am
RE: Is free will real? - by ManMachine - December 16, 2014 at 10:58 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 15, 2014 at 5:50 am
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 15, 2014 at 6:08 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 15, 2014 at 6:23 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Tonus - December 15, 2014 at 6:25 am
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 15, 2014 at 6:33 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 15, 2014 at 6:36 am
RE: Is free will real? - by ManMachine - December 15, 2014 at 6:38 am
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 15, 2014 at 6:42 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 15, 2014 at 9:45 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 15, 2014 at 9:57 am
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 15, 2014 at 10:05 am
RE: Is free will real? - by FatAndFaithless - December 15, 2014 at 10:15 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 15, 2014 at 11:12 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 15, 2014 at 12:55 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 15, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 16, 2014 at 12:01 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Anomalocaris - December 15, 2014 at 1:08 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by comet - December 15, 2014 at 9:09 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 16, 2014 at 12:31 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 16, 2014 at 9:17 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 16, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 16, 2014 at 12:21 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 16, 2014 at 11:33 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 16, 2014 at 12:33 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 16, 2014 at 11:36 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 16, 2014 at 11:48 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 16, 2014 at 11:56 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 16, 2014 at 12:35 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 16, 2014 at 1:14 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 16, 2014 at 12:48 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 16, 2014 at 1:17 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 16, 2014 at 1:19 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 16, 2014 at 1:22 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 16, 2014 at 1:28 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 16, 2014 at 1:32 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 16, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 16, 2014 at 3:54 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 16, 2014 at 4:28 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 16, 2014 at 7:34 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by MysticKnight - December 20, 2014 at 1:24 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 20, 2014 at 1:47 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 20, 2014 at 10:15 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 20, 2014 at 8:37 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 20, 2014 at 1:40 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by MysticKnight - December 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 21, 2014 at 1:07 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 21, 2014 at 4:20 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 21, 2014 at 10:34 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 21, 2014 at 10:49 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 20, 2014 at 8:25 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 20, 2014 at 8:59 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 21, 2014 at 10:56 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 21, 2014 at 11:08 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 21, 2014 at 11:19 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 21, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 22, 2014 at 5:17 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 29, 2014 at 8:30 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 22, 2014 at 5:56 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 22, 2014 at 6:50 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 22, 2014 at 9:09 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 22, 2014 at 7:57 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 22, 2014 at 8:41 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Zen Badger - December 22, 2014 at 8:01 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 22, 2014 at 8:10 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 22, 2014 at 9:18 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 22, 2014 at 6:38 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 22, 2014 at 10:53 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Elskidor - December 22, 2014 at 8:55 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 22, 2014 at 11:06 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 22, 2014 at 8:48 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 22, 2014 at 9:25 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Angrboda - December 22, 2014 at 9:16 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Dystopia - December 22, 2014 at 9:38 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 22, 2014 at 10:21 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Jackie - December 22, 2014 at 10:30 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 22, 2014 at 11:16 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 23, 2014 at 10:06 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 23, 2014 at 12:12 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 23, 2014 at 7:15 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by abaris - December 23, 2014 at 7:23 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 23, 2014 at 9:24 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 24, 2014 at 8:05 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 24, 2014 at 12:43 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 24, 2014 at 2:21 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 24, 2014 at 4:43 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 24, 2014 at 7:56 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 24, 2014 at 4:54 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 24, 2014 at 9:21 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 24, 2014 at 10:01 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 25, 2014 at 1:42 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 25, 2014 at 1:40 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 25, 2014 at 7:19 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 25, 2014 at 10:23 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 26, 2014 at 4:40 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 26, 2014 at 11:38 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 26, 2014 at 12:28 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 25, 2014 at 9:19 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 25, 2014 at 1:04 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 25, 2014 at 10:04 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 25, 2014 at 11:04 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 25, 2014 at 1:16 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 25, 2014 at 3:27 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 25, 2014 at 1:15 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 25, 2014 at 1:30 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 26, 2014 at 8:54 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 26, 2014 at 12:18 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 26, 2014 at 9:07 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 26, 2014 at 9:13 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 26, 2014 at 6:20 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 26, 2014 at 7:29 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 26, 2014 at 7:04 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 26, 2014 at 9:15 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 26, 2014 at 11:34 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 27, 2014 at 2:57 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 27, 2014 at 3:44 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 27, 2014 at 4:17 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 27, 2014 at 3:47 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 27, 2014 at 8:04 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 27, 2014 at 9:49 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 28, 2014 at 12:53 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 27, 2014 at 10:58 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 26, 2014 at 10:26 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 27, 2014 at 12:42 am
RE: Is free will real? - by vorlon13 - December 27, 2014 at 1:06 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 27, 2014 at 1:20 am
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 27, 2014 at 3:09 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 27, 2014 at 9:44 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 27, 2014 at 7:58 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by A Fisherman - December 27, 2014 at 10:41 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Alex K - December 27, 2014 at 11:01 am
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - December 27, 2014 at 1:24 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 27, 2014 at 10:49 am
RE: Is free will real? - by A Fisherman - December 27, 2014 at 11:05 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 27, 2014 at 4:51 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 27, 2014 at 4:37 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by vorlon13 - December 27, 2014 at 5:49 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by MysticKnight - December 27, 2014 at 7:43 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 27, 2014 at 8:03 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 27, 2014 at 9:45 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 27, 2014 at 11:31 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 28, 2014 at 9:28 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 28, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 28, 2014 at 2:41 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 28, 2014 at 6:55 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 28, 2014 at 8:03 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Angrboda - December 29, 2014 at 1:27 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 29, 2014 at 2:00 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Angrboda - December 29, 2014 at 5:20 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - January 3, 2015 at 7:30 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - January 3, 2015 at 10:50 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - January 4, 2015 at 1:44 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - January 4, 2015 at 5:27 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - January 5, 2015 at 9:06 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - January 5, 2015 at 9:39 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - January 5, 2015 at 8:13 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 29, 2014 at 4:48 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 29, 2014 at 5:12 am
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 29, 2014 at 5:23 am
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - December 29, 2014 at 6:54 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - December 29, 2014 at 10:30 am
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - December 29, 2014 at 7:12 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 29, 2014 at 10:24 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - December 29, 2014 at 12:34 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - December 29, 2014 at 6:45 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Jolnir - January 2, 2015 at 8:44 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - January 2, 2015 at 9:18 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - January 2, 2015 at 10:21 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - January 3, 2015 at 12:44 am
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - January 2, 2015 at 10:36 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by IATIA - January 3, 2015 at 9:37 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by h4ym4n - January 4, 2015 at 7:11 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - January 4, 2015 at 2:00 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - January 4, 2015 at 3:40 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - January 4, 2015 at 3:47 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - January 4, 2015 at 7:26 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Mudhammam - January 4, 2015 at 7:36 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by bennyboy - January 4, 2015 at 9:40 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by tantric - January 4, 2015 at 6:37 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - January 5, 2015 at 9:47 am
RE: Is free will real? - by robvalue - January 5, 2015 at 9:50 am
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - January 5, 2015 at 8:19 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - January 5, 2015 at 8:22 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by The Grand Nudger - January 5, 2015 at 8:24 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Whateverist - January 5, 2015 at 8:31 pm
RE: Is free will real? - by Neo-Scholastic - January 6, 2015 at 9:57 am

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