She Keeps Sucking The Life Out of Me

[Creed of Heresy]

Argumentum ad populum fallacy. Your point remains invalid.

No, with regards to definitions, what most people think is not an argumentum ad populum fallacy. A lot of people hear this fallacy and charge it incorrectly, not considering its limitations.

And how do you figure that? If something is not objectively defined by a common source, then it is up to subjective interpretation. And the point of marriage is not so universally agreed-upon as you claim, at any rate, and in fact, the definition of marriage "according to most" apparently seems to be the wrong one:

http://firstthings.org/whats-the-point-of-marriage

“What people seem to have forgotten is one very important element or purpose of marriage,” said Dr. Popenoe. “Throughout history, marriage has been viewed as a child rearing institution. As a society, we, like other modern societies, are drifting ever further from that understanding. While Americans aspire to marriage, they are evermore inclined to see it as an intimate relationship between adults rather than as a necessary social arrangement for rearing children. There is a robust body of research that indicates that children raised with their two, married biological parents (mother and father), who are in a low-conflict relationship, on the whole do much better in life than children raised in other family forms. To the degree that we as a society want our children to do well in life we should be very concerned with what is happening to marriage.”

Well lookie there; it seems the modern mass-definition of marriage contradicts the original definitions of it being an institution of child-rearing! Gee, it's almost like it's subject or something and open to interpretation and reinterpretation! Almost like you appealing to the majority is not accurate because it seems peoples' ideas of what marriage is changes!

Don't argue language with someone who is obsessed with it. You're not gonna come out on top.

Unless those who enact the union later desire to bring them into it in some way.

So far, marriage is considered a union of two people and two people only.

See above. For legal purposes, marriage is a union of two people for the sake of filing taxes, household census, and other stuff largely pertaining to populace information, but it does not define what those two people do otherwise. Now, if you refer to polygamy, that is in reference to having more than one spouse; it says nothing of taking a paramour. The definition of a paramour is "a lover, especially the illicit partner of a married person," but the key word is "especially," which does not mean "specifically." Meaning, again, that the dictionary does not set the objective standard and that therefore subjective exceptions can be made for the definition.

As for marriage itself, wikipedia has this to say on the matter:

Marriage (also called matrimony or wedlock) is a socially or ritually recognized union or legal contract between spouses that establishes rights and obligations between them, between them and their children, and between them and their in-laws.[1] The definition of marriage varies according to different cultures, but it is principally an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually sexual, are acknowledged. In some cultures, marriage is recommended or considered to be compulsory before pursuing any sexual activity. When defined broadly, marriage is considered a cultural universal.

If you read the article itself, (Link, for your navigational pleasure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage ), it seems to be that the definition of marriage itself seems to be culturally diverse. So...your appeal to the masses doesn't hold up either, because when you say "most people," I have to ask "according to whom?" Because, if you start asking different people from different areas across the world, the definitions seem to vary. The only concrete aspect of marriage is that it is a practice that everyone partakes in. But in what ways? How? Nothing concrete.

Aaactually, that's not-so-subtly suggesting that there is something wrong with others' definitions of marriage and the directions that they take with them. Sure, that's not what you said verbatim, but the sting of the wasp doesn't need to be lethal for it to hurt.

Key word: "If." Didn't notice that? Twice? Once upon reading it, once more upon quoting it? o_O She didn't tell you anything other than a hypothetical in the event that it happened to be true.

LOL...my general statement to no one in particular has the sting of a wasp, but Losty's direct comment regarding me and my wife shuold be ignored because of the "if." I find it amazing that you made those arguments back-to-back.

A general statement is making your own case in a summarized fashion, the provision of context to your argument.
The utilization of "if" as an introduction to a point, however, renders it as a hypothetical; as in, not a confirmed stance. It is therefore a hypothetical suggestion if the terms for it are met. If she had simply stated something about your marriage as if it were true, it would be her nosing into your marital affairs, as it would be addressing the issue itself. See what I mean? It's always the little details that can make or break a meaning, and they're easy to overlook sometimes, I admit.

Awfully defensive about that, though.

No, actually I let it go for many pages, and only brought it up to show the hypocrisy of people who were complaining that others' marriage is none of my business.

Well, see above, but I'll accept this part all the same.

I imagine that if she had said "SINCE your wife doesn't trust you..." then, yes, that would actually probably be the case, and if it had not been, then you would have been vindicated in your claim of "revisionist history." As it stands though...that protest thing...mmm...

None of her business means just that...none of her business, as in refraining from making hypotheticals.

Well, to go back, it honestly sounded like you were bringing your own marital details into the conversation. And, frankly, participating in this kind of discussion more or less entails having your business addressed, as we are discussing a topic that is, as I explained above, specific only in its existence as a form of union, but not what that union entails or how one takes to defining their own.

Aside: I have the liberty of not really having to deal with my marital life discussed or inquired into; it doesn't exist! Ha! Hahaha! Haaahhhhh man I'm lonely-

But recently, that seems to have changed a little...

Also note that she was more honest than you, and when this was noted she agreed her comments were not in accord with her own stated standards and apologized.

How have I not been honest?

Honestly (heh) I didn't notice that. But, if she considered it nosing into your marital affairs, fair enough (man, I'm on a roll with the wordplay today). I just don't really see people making hypotheticals towards me to be them nosing into my business. But, I'm willing to concede that I can be quite literal-minded myself, depending on verbiage regarding inquiries directed my way. If someone is saying something in the sense of a possibility that may or may not be a thing, I guess I tend to look at it as something to possibly reference in the future or to not.

quote]
Subjective claim. Invalid.

Refraining from going to strip clubs is a higher bar than allowing them.[/quote]

Again, what bar? Your own? I would say your bar is actually lower. Why? Well, going to a strip club can be considered a test of willpower. A guy who is married goes to a strip club and has bare titties and poon wiggling around in front of his face, and yet he does not act on it. The naked body of another female is being blatantly displayed to him and yet he is not indulging sexual intercourse with her. Whereas you, who refrains, are not testing your willpower, and are not displaying your ability to restrain yourself and ergo continue to show devotion to your wife.

I would say the one who puts themselves to the challenge and rises above it is much stronger than the one who does not challenge himself. Or herself, whatever, but no woman here yet has mentioned getting a strip-tease from a male stripper dressed like a firefighter, so... Still, the sentiment would remain. The challenge requires more devotion to rise to it. After all, we do not look upon those who take the easy route as being superior to those who take the hard one to get to the same goal. Success through trial means more than success through less effort.

So...yeah, I guess I'm saying your bar is actually not really higher by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not even sure how you come to that conclusion, really. But then, there are many people who would rather kiss their boss's ass instead of get their promotions through extra effort and dedication to the job, so I guess that is just a thing. It seems alien to me, given I've always had to take the hard road whether I like it or not, but there ya go.

Seems to me, so far, to be "having intercourse with another."

With the comment that things he does with them might be considered rape if not paid for, I'm not sure about that any more.

Yes. "Might be." That is a possibility. After all, making a girl get naked for you by forcing her to do so would be a form of rape. Besides, he didn't say he does do those things, he said if he did those things. There's those two little letters, sneaking on in there, the sneaky little shitlords... But, 'if' and 'might.' If you immediately assume that he actually would do those things, that they are genuine options he is considering or has considered without him stating as such, that kind of implies a very toxic point of view of him, and with a very poor reason for doing so...

Are you truly so dense as to not grasp that implication??

What's the logical implication of the rape comment?

*sighs.* Seeeee aboooove... And below, I think.

Never heard of "look, don't touch," eh? Some people take it further; "look, but don't fuck."

I think you mean "look and touch, but don't fuck," and even that's in question with the rape comment.

You never really have had a lap dance, have ya? Rule number one in the strip club; never touch the dancers, unless they ask you to. You can be, and will be ejected from the club if you do so without their consent. So it's not as in question as you assume.

"Some manner." Key words. Please read, stop being so literal, and stop blowing things out of proportion. If she's not being paid, and she's being forced to display herself and perform provocative actions, that is a form of sexual assault.

Yep, but it's probably not a form of rape. And regarding being literal, consider you "if" argument above. Please stop being so hypocritical.

I never professed to not be literal-minded myself. I simply requested that in the context that things are being discussed in that you not be so literal. That's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if I implied I am never literal-minded and that I am superior to you because you are being literal-minded. I am well aware of my tendency to be exactly that, often to a fault. If it's something that is causing me to make incorrect arguments and someone points it out, I do try to correct myself.

Anyway, to get back on track, sexual assault is a general term, under which rape falls under. Something I learned as an r.c.c. is that, confusingly, the "escalation" of the definition is basically sexual assault < rape = sexual assault. Makes no sense, right? Yeah, it doesn't make much sense to me, either. Rape is specifically when penetration occurs, but generally-speaking, if rape occurs, everything else that was considered "only" sexual assault prior and after is also considered the act of rape. So, yes, it could actually be a form of rape, and honestly, in such an instance, were it to come to pass, it's pretty likely it would escalate to the defining act itself. It usually does, as I am all too aware...

*pinches the bridge of his nose* For fuck's sake. If she's being paid for it, and she accepts the money, she is doing it willingly. This is not some philosophical matter of freedom of choice; if she accepts the money, and it's the career path she opted to take, and has no qualms about doing it, it's not rape. The fact that she is paid for it, and accepts payment, and does it all willingly means it cannot by any means be considered rape.

Point is that it indicates that he's paying for more than the lap dance that he's admitted to. A lap dance wouldn't be rape if it weren't paid for.

I combed through Rhythm's posts. He hasn't stated that he has done such a thing, only the hypothetical for the sake of argument, as you were indicating that a lap dance is a form of sexual intercourse, and that his stance is that a mere lap dance is not, and that it would only be a form of sexual intercourse if he was doing more than getting a lap dance.

I think.

This shit's getting convoluted as all fuck, and it's making my head hurt.

Rhythm, would you mind clarifying this particular part for me? I suddenly feel like I'm either missing something or there's an error in communication going on, here.

And as he only has sex with his wife, and they both don't bother adhering to the unimaginative conservative puritan bullshit point of view that looking at another individual who is negative because they are confident in their sexuality with one another, it seems your strategy is actually not any better (but no worse, either) than his own. You're looking down at him...but you're looking at his shoes, because you're on equal footing here.

So why didn't you take him to task for starting this by disparagingly referring to others as puritans? Why didn't you tell him that he's looking down at me, but looking at my shoes, because we're on equal footing?

Because, as far as I've read, he isn't the one saying his bar and standards are higher. I went through the thread and looked, but I didn't see anything like that. If he did, though, please point it out for me, because I'm clearly missing it.

---

Rhythm is right about something: marriages are defined by people differently. As such, the behaviors of one married couple might not work for another. Some married couples are perfectly fine with "swinging" and others have expectations of one another not to engage in anything of the sort. It's all about finding what is optimal for you and your partner. There is no right way to manage a marriage; there is only your and your wife's way.

Hey, that wasn't Rhythm, that was me!

...Right?

I'M MISSING SOMETHING AREN'T I.

Great, now I'm going to be going all OCD over this.