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(August 14, 2010 at 4:49 am)tackattack Wrote: From my perspective Jesus' sacrifice was in his knowingly and willfully suffering for our atonement, not in his shuffling of the mortal coil which is just a part of nature anyways. The reason why he did it is because he said he would, which would be considered a prophecy and then fufillment. This would of course add to the meaningfullness of the event rather than detract from it.
-PS feel free to ask anytime, better to ask hear and get pats on the back from your fellows then get booted by some self-righteous pricks [/generalizations]
Well I accept at least he had the choice and chose to do it even though its had no effect whatsoever over the last 2000 years quite the opposite in fact which of course must support the theory that his suffering (if he did suffer and its not clear he did).
As you accept his choice, you must also accept that his suffering wasnt anyway near as bad as that suffered by millions of humans during the progress of evolution.
In that way humanity has paid its own price (if suffering is the measure of it). We never needed Jesus we had all suffered enough.
However I fail to see how his dying on a cross did any good at all even if man's humanity is the product of suffering due to evolution.
Thanks for the offer. In fact I like getting booted by self-righteous pricks !!I have already made my mind up to try some questions on a Christian forum. i did try once but the banned me.
Nice to know we have a few tame ones on this board.
It's not necessity that I accept his suffering was equivalent to or less than the rest of humanity through evolution or any other method. For a conscious omnipotent being, to take human form, and thus restrict himself somewhat; as well as the emotional suffering of knowing all the evil on earth, yet being restricted in reach; as well as the torture of being the only human to actually know the truth, yet knowing you'll also fail at conveying it entirely; plus all the physical torture when you've never experienced pain (emotion or physical) has a lot of weight and I don't think typical human suffering would even come close enough to compare.
(August 14, 2010 at 7:33 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote:
Quote:It is confusing I must admit. Tackattack has given a pretty good account of my understanding. I think the difference is he can get his head round it and I can't (like you). Firstly i think the premise is wrong that we have anything to answer to god for. If god made us in his own image then we act as he does. I don't consider myself a guilty, unworthy, sinful, wretched human in need of saving. I didn't ask Jesus to attone for my sins and I don't want it. Secondly if Jesus was god he knew he'd be resurrected and therefore his sacrifice was hardly very great. Thirdly why sacrifice yourself to yourself? Fouthly assuming there was a historical Jesus who was crucified. It was probably for sedition against the roman empire And his followers could only rationalise that their leader wasn't saved by god by starting a mythology (denial and all that) ; wild speculation I know but no less so than a resurrection. Fifthly where did he go. We are told he bodily ascended to heaven, but heaven is necessarily an immaterial realm to accomodate god. I am now boring myself as well as the reader......
You have made some of the points I was trying to make clearer particularly the issue of supposed sacrifice. I fully understand the issue of sin too its another issue.
If God made us and gave us the physiology and the neurophysiology and the hormonal system etc. He only has himself to blame if we end up using them. After all he has them too (as we were made like him) so he also needs to be aggressive needs to make social progress needs sex etc etc.
I certainly dint agree with Takattack's suggestion that Jesus suffered by being sacrificed or that self sacrifice when you know your not going top die is any way as bad as suffering suffered by those who are torchered to death or those that have died in their millions due to slow lingering starvation or volcanoes or climate change ice ages disease etc.
My first wife died of cancer. Her death took nearly two years and she knew it was coming. She knew she wouldn't rise again. She knew she would loose all those she loved never see her family or children again and never know what happens to them she knew she was leaving her grandchildren without her support These things hurt her more than the pain she told me and believe me that was bad enough.
She was mutilated, radiated and poisoned. Every month brought a new way of making her ill but prolonging her life.
She lost her dignity as the cancer made her lose her ability to use the toilet she was constantly sick. It grew inside her until she had to be almost permanently sedated.
She wanted to see us all that much some days she refused to take medication for the pain because
she knew those days were all she would have left. She suffered we suffered.
If I was given the choice of dying like her or being crucified I would choose crucifixion especially if it didn't mean death after all. I am sure most of us would.
Jesus (if he existed) had it easy. No doubt about that.
A comment on your wild speculation as I am sure you know its not so wild.
I prefer the evidence that supports the fact that the actual followers of Jesus lost the plot after his death and the whole ball game was taken over by Paul who really decided the religion had to be focused on the Romans not the Jews who then took all the blame. Nothing could be less boring that such an involved plot to take over the world.hock:
Quote:On the second premise, we don't act as God does. that's the main point of the Bible.
I don't consider myself wretched either, you're still viewing sin as the movie type evil guy with a big mustache twirling it, rather than a simple turning away from the laws written on your heart by God.
@tackattack. What does it mean that we are in the image of god. We are not physically the same, he is immaterial? Only our natures can be the same/similar. I think unless you can show me why this is a false conclusion I am correct in inferring it. I think any moves to mysticism will weaken your argument here, eg we cannot know god, mysterious way etc.
What on earth does it mean to say laws are written on my heart. This is a favourite William lane craigism. Really bright guy and a huge spinmeister for evangelicalism. It's vacuous IMO. If you accept Christianity, you accept God is an author, you accept the 613 laws. I am proud to turn my back on a lot of these as you no doubt have. There is lots of stuff in his books about the broze age practices of animal sacrifice, how to treat slaves nicely, child discipline, stoning as a form of punishment. But it took secular values and the enlightment to move us to a world in which these things seemed barbaric. If god had meant this all along why didn't he just tell us instead of admonishing us for taking a fancy to our mates donkey or calling him names? Unless of course he does not exist :-)
On your first point I think you're missing the nature of similarities between God and him creating us in his image. Your story was very sad and touching and I can not empathize with that amount of loss, but my sympathies to you. It has no bearing on this conversation other than emotive but I'm sure it has a lot of relevance to you personally and I respect that. I agree it's speculation but I'm not going to go all conspiracy to take over the world, when the bible and Jesus clearly teach to be in the world and not of the world and to give Caesar what's his.
On your second point, I think you're missing the spirit of the New Testament and it's relation to the OT.
It does take secular values and personal enlightenment to judge the truth of the Bible. You seem to be under the assumption that Christianity teaches us not to internally weigh decision or question dogma and accept everything blindly. That is not the religion I was raised in. The laws on your heart is a reference to Jeremiah 31:33.
(August 14, 2010 at 11:04 am)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:From my perspective Jesus' sacrifice was in his knowingly and willfully suffering for our atonement,
Which really puts the pressure on you to prove that any such thing actually happened and was not simply a later literary construction. Good luck with that because barring some amazing find history (not bible-based horseshit) has found nothing to sustain your claim.
Agreed min and I have neither the knowledge nor the energy to attempt to prove that at this time min, I know you were itching for me to
if suffering is less than could normally be expected of individuals at the time it has no real meaning.
It didn't save anyone. It wasnt atonement for anyone and the world went on with even more misery most of it caused by religion not reduced by belief in it. My personal experience has everything to do with my personal belief and unlike you I understand that. You can claim to ignore these issues as its not in your frame provided by others (the religion you were raised in ) and cant escape.
Jesus at one point made some minor reference to money with the head of an emperor on it. Obviously meant to imply that money was worthless and obligation to the law was more important. That law was not the law of the Romans.
The point Jesus was was purely a Jewish one. It has taken Christians 2000 years and they still havent been able to hide the truth. So to quote such meagure anecdotal corrupted and unsupported specualtion (its not mentioned in all the Gospels) is not useful.
People suffer on earth all the time. They always have. More since The so called ministry of Jesus than before.
As son of God he failed. God failed. If he existed he would have succeeded. He is after all omnipotent.
People are less likely to belive y now than they were then.
The issue isnt one of the Bible and what was written many years after the even (as it was) selected for by those with a vested interets (as it was).
Christianity is solely a function of mankinds ignorance and fear.
The paternalistic religions were all produced by men for men.
hock:
