What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Catholic_Lady]

It means that it IS immoral regardless of what some people believe. So, going around butchring infidel men, women, and children for the sole reason that they are not radical Islamists, is immoral, period. This is a moral truth.

I keep using Isis as an example because it's the big thing going on right now. But it's just an example and is not limited to them.

I agree with your point #3.

And how about pastors (not catholics, but christians) calling for killing gays and transgender people? How about them praying for the demise of people? It's the same spirit, only held in check by a thin layer of society. What about capital punishment? What's your stance on that issue?

What about catholic priests and monks abusing children, thereby ruining their lives and their abilities to trust? I live in Austria where this is a big issue. Not as big as in Ireland, but big nonetheless.

What about Brejvik, whose outspoken goal was to save christian Europe from Islamisation?

Religion isn't a safety belt that somehow, magically, conjures morality and decency from the skies. Truth is, if you want, you can justify every vileness by reading any holy book.

I have never heard of any pastor calling for the killing of gays/transgendered folks, or for the demise of people. But that is obviously very much against everything Jesus taught.

I am vehemently against the death penalty.

The abuse of Children is a very very wrong thing, and very much against Catholic teaching. The men who committed those horrible acts were going 100% against what their faith teaches.

I am not well versed on Brejvik.

I agree. Just because someone is a Christian does not mean they never do anythign wrong anymore. There are plenty of bad people who call themselves Christians, like there are bad people in every group.

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I do find the notion that morality is completely relative and completely subjective, a deeply flawed one. And I don't even say this as a Catholic, I say this as a person who really does try to think logically. Even if I were an atheist, I don't think I could ever make sense of the notion that morality is always subjective.

This would mean that as long as a particular society or culture thinks something is moral, it is. I could never see killing infidel children or burning alive women who were rapped or cutting off a 12 year old's clitoris as ever being moral. Regardless of whether or not that particular culture thought it was, I would still believe those things are intrinsically immoral and so it would follow that I would still believe in some sort of moral truth.

Not aiming to deconvert you, but embracing universal moral relativism and subjectivity is not a requirement to be an atheist. Esquilax doesn't fit that description, for instance.

Oh I know. I have spoken to atheists who do not believe that morality is subjective.