What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Catholic_Lady]

If I believed we were nothing but material made from star dust, I would still believe hurting others is wrong, but I wouldn't quite understand why.

You're probably not a sociopath.....and I'd hate to call you a liar for this...but.......are you being entirely honest with us or yourself?  You'd be at a loss as to explain why raping and pillaging, pushing old women into traffic and skull-fucking toddlers were wrong.....were it not for this "god" business?  Really.....?

If that's the contention you have, if you want to run with it and have others see you as that person...then okay.  If it's true, it's true.......but I think you may need to speak to someone other than the members of this forum about that.

Gotta say, I feel for you, must be a strange position to be in, I've never found myself in that position so my comments wouldn't mean much.  That any of those things above is right or wrong doesn't have anything to do, for me, with who created us, for what, or -with- what.

I am being 100% honest. If I believed all we were was just material made from dust particles and nothing else, I would still know that hurting others is wrong. I would still feel sorry for people. But I wouldn't be able to explain *why* it would be so important to treat others well. I would know it was, but I wouldn't know where that came from.

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I am sorry that so many of you are having a hard time with understanding/accepting the notion that the OT is written allegorically, especially when what Jesus teaches is so contradicting to the God that is depicted in the OT.

I feel like I have gotten more flack here for saying the OT is allegorical than I have on the uber fundamentalist Christian forums lol. Which is interesting.

I'd rather you thought the OT was allegorical than accept it factually.  But I can't imagine how you contrive to see it that way.  It certainly was not intended to be read allegorically by the people writing it, though in the case of Genesis and Exodus you might make a colorable argument to that effect.  Much of those two books might actually have been intended allegorically.

The law in Deuteronomy is not allegorical.  It was meant to be the law and the Hebrews attempted to follow it as such warts and all.  Joshua, Judges, Kings, and Chronicles were meant to be read as historical fact.  They are of course propaganda as much as history, but they were intended to be read as fact.  If you think otherwise, you are arguing against they way people those texts were meant for read them.

The Psalms are poetry and indeed much of them is metaphorical and allegorical.  It's the nature of poetry.

Proverbs are advice not allegory.

The prophets were intended to be read as written, admonitions to the Hebrews to behave in certain ways.  They don't really agree with each other about how to behave, but the general message is the same, do what god says or bad things happen.  They were not written as allegory they were written to explain why bad things happened to the Hebrew nations.  They were also written as hopeful propaganda for the promotion of a new Hebrew nation.

The NT on the other had is full of allegory.  What else is Revelations?  And Jesus spoke in parables.

I know from reading people's reactions that I have done a poor job of explaining the issues with the OT and why God seemed so different back then.

I have talked to Randy Carson about this via PM and he will soon be writing about this issue here. I think he will be better equipped to explain it than I could ever be. In the mean time, thank you all for being patient with me on this.

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I agree completely. Priests are to be held to higher standards and it's even worse when something like this is done by a person who claims to be a man of God. I was only saying that we shouldn't steroetype priests as molesters when so few of them do it, especially compared to other men. That's all I was saying.

How convenient that you ignore the actions of the church hierarchy in transferring pervert priests to new parishes.  Even Herr Von Popenfuhrer was guilty of that.  Why do you make excuses for these bastards who only cared about protecting their image and shielding their assets from the victims?

Have you no shame?

I am sorry Minimalist, but I do not know where or when I made excuses for people who molest or for people who cover it up. I have repeatedly stated that those 2 things are very very wrong. I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I believe differently. Rest assured, such is definitely not the case.

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It's estimated that at bare minimum, 10% of the human race is homosexual. That's approaching a billion people.
If homosexuality is wrong, does it not strike you as odd that this god of yours keeps churning them out at a rate of several hundred thousand a day?

Homosexuality is not wrong.