What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[FatAndFaithless]

I'm well aware of the idea of 'softening' the verses from apologists, but I'd rather they just update the damn verse itself to reflect what they claim is its true meaning.

But my primary objection isn't the word 'hate' itself, I've read plenty writings like the one you linked.  I wasn't trying to pull a "gotcha" just because of one word in one verse.

My larger point is the ideas behind the verses.  In order to follow Jesus, one must (using your linked words) value his family and even his own life less than Jesus, and must put more stock in the next life than this life (the only life we can be sure we're going to live).  I find it rather repulsive for one figure to literally say that you must love nothing more than he himself, and that if you value the here and now - our reality and societies and loved ones - over the hereafter, then you're somehow wrong.

Ah gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm impressed and glad you were able to look past the one word to see what the actual message is.

I know this won't be convincing or make any sense for someone who doesn't believe in a God, but "to worship" is a more powerful thing than "to love" (as we understand it), and we are supposed to worship God. We are not supposed to worship any member of our family. So yes, we are supposed to put God above our families. Also, I believe that God made us and that He made us for Himself... so when all that we know here on earth is gone, the thing that will matter most and give us complete fulfillment, is God. No one or nothing else will ever be able to fulfill us completely, until God does when we are reunited with him in the afterlife... because that is what we were made for. Heaven isn't great because there are flying horses and everyone is nice, Heaven is great because it will give us complete fulfillment by being with God. We won't need flying horses. I know you don't agree with that or understand it, and this probably isn't the answer you wanted to her, but I can't deny that this is what I believe and I stand behind it.

As for the afterlife being more important than this life... well, I know you don't believe in afterlife, but imagine for a second that you did. Let's say you live until you are 100. What is 100 years in comparison to an eternity? Seriously, in the realm of eternity, forever and ever, something that will never ever end, what is 100 years?? When you put it into perspective like that, 100 years is nothing, nothing, compared to our entire, never ending existence. So for someone who believes in the afterlife, it makes absolute sense to care more about the never ending, eternal life more so than the one that will last a measly 100 years. Does that make sense?

Well, thanks for starting with that first sentence, because you're right, it's something I really just don't understand or even want. The idea of worship rather revolts me, so I wasn't implying we should worship anyone in our family (or any person ever). I believe we should focus solely on the people around us and our world and our society that we know we have, instead of a proposition that only promises the reward after we die.

And I do find one of your last sentences very troubling:

it makes absolute sense to care more about the never ending, eternal life more so than the one that will last a measly 100 years.

And that's the attitude I find problematic. It's a reason people use to deny climate change, minimize the suffering of others (and themselves), it justifies lack of action to ameliorate the problems that plague our world, and generally removes the impetus for us to improve and sustain our 'measly' reality, because hey, it's only for a few decades right?