Miracle

[Harris]

You could go through the various miscellaneous ideas in the Bible, in mythology, and in Greek and Roman literature, and find that among the many ideas presented by them, some of them seem to accord well with modern science. I mean, the word "atom" has been around for thousands of years. Is that a miracle, too?
I'd say a couple things about all this:

1) People in the past were smart, perhaps smarter than today. So it's only bias that makes you think that someone one or two millenia ago couldn't figure things out. It's also possible that they arrived at a correct view through an incorrect process-- guessing, for example, or extending a philosophical principle into a context in which it shouldn't have been.

2) The particular passage you are talking about is explainable in other ways than "miracle." For example, it may be that the idea of expansion was en vogue already at or before that time, and the writers of the Quran simply mentioned it as an aside. You make the mistake of reading only the passage, and making assumptions without knowing the cultural context in which the passage was written.

If granted that those smart people somehow concluded that universe is expanding then why the whole credit of this discovery goes to Hubble. Why there is no mention about it anywhere in the entire human history?

If this scientific fact is mentioned anywhere in the history then it is in the seventh century Quran.

3) Why is everything in religion always so vague and ambiguous? You say that God wanted to show his greatness by introducing the "miracle" of a Quran writer happening to mention the idea of expansion. Why didn't he include a picture of the atom? Why didn't he produce the miracle of preventing infant deaths, or genocide, or cars that run on water?

You are singing the same old song and forcing me to repeat the same old response. QURAN IS NOT A BOOK OF SCIENCE; IT IS A BOOK OF SIGNS. IT IS A BOOK OF DIVINE LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS. The presence of scientific facts in Quran exhibit that Quran cannot be the work of human. By this manifestation, Quran is endorsing the certainty of second life and giving warnings to people about the consequences they will face based on their deeds in this world.

“And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.”
Ar Ruum (30)
Verse 22-

“But they (impudently) treated Our Signs as false.”
An-Naba' (78)
-Verse 28-

By the way, you missed an important "miracle." God said "I am the alpha and the omega."

Quran says:

“He (God) is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent: and He has full knowledge of all things.”
Al Hadiid (57)
-Verse 3-

This means that the beginning is the same as the end, which is only possible in a singularity.

This means:

God existed without beginning before he created all things and He will live endlessly even if He put an end to all things.

Therefore, you should be making the case that the Big Bang singularity is God.

Science is now predicting that although big bang was the beginning of our known universe yet there was a BEFORE prior to that Big Bang. So the idea that Big Bang was the beginning of time and space is now on a free fall.

Go quick, run and start a thread about the miracle of black holes!

https://vimeo.com/60556296

You're agreeing with exactly what I said. If one other organ senses the pain of fire like skin does then this means you don't just need skin in order to sense the pain of fire.

It doesn't matter if it's just a few other organs that will sense the pain of fire.

Your whole point was that it's miraculous that the quran is saying there is no pain caused by fire apart from on the skin, and the quran is showing this by saying the skin will be replaced. But there is pain caused by fire by a few other organs as you yourself have just said.

In order to reach the internal organs, fire should penetrate the skin. If skin is replaced by new skin before fire reaches the layer beneath then fresh skin start burning again and protect internal organs from burning. Further, the internal organs, which are sensitive to heat, are not fused in the skin, they are at a distance and they remain unaffected by the heat unless skin is entirely wiped out.

There are other means to effect the heat sensitive internal organs.

“Is that the (Paradise) better entertainment or the Tree of Zaqqum?
For We have truly made it (as) a trial for the wrong-doers.
For it is a tree that springs out of the bottom of Hell-Fire:
The shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils:
Truly they will eat thereof and fill their bellies therewith.
Then on top of that they will be given a mixture made of boiling water.”
Ash-Shaaffat (37)
-Verse 63 – 67-

Again this isn't a case of someone standing close to a radiator, someone is being thrown into a consuming fire. Skin is 2mm thick, even if it is bad at conducting and is being replaced it still wouldn't protect the inside of the body from overheating.

Additionally the quran talks of the skin only being replaced once it has been burnt through, this would definitely result in internal organs being damaged.

In this life, humans are feeble mortals but in supernatural world, people would have different builds and there they would be immortals. That construct would provide people pure joy and pleasure or pure pain and sufferings without being touched by ageing and without being destructed by fire.

No the quran doesn't say that the skin will lose the characteristic of feeling pain. It doesn't say CONTINUE the penalty. It says they will taste the penalty.

We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment.

You need no knowledge of biology to know that when you burn stuff it disappears or turns black and crusty, the quran is simply saying that the burning of the skin hurts and in order to repeat it once the skin has either blistered and melted away, god will replace the skin back to where it was again and burn it again.

If I say I will chop your ear off then replace it with another ear to be chopped off again so you may taste the penalty it's not a miracle, I'm giving you no information about pain receptors.

It's just me making a stupid threat involving primitive brutal methods combined with fairytale magic.

One more additional point is I can't figure out why you're still insisting this is a miracle. You claim the verse is saying without the skins pain receptors the body will not taste the punishment, yet we have both established and agreed that other organs do sense pain.

You magically keep a person alive and immortal and have a fire roast through them and even once the skin has roasted through the fire will eventually hit and damage other organs that will cause pain.

When all aristocrats were affiliating feeling of burn to heart and to brain, Quran had associated it to the skin.

Quran is giving a hint that the pain of burning is hidden in the skin (which is a scientific fact) not in heart and not in brain and to strengthen this idea Quran has stressed over the process of replacing old burned skin with the fresh one to endure the penalty.

Until 1564, no one has any idea of what instigate the feeling of burn when skin exposed to fire. Quran is the first scripture that has revealed the source of burning sensation (THE SKIN) in seventh century. This is a miracle.

Quran by providing signs draws attention of people to the facts upon which normally they pass over without giving any consideration. Quran only exposes the main idea without going into intricate details because it is not a textbook of science but a book of Divine Laws where hints are enough for the people who contemplate with wisdom.

“Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 164-

Additionally you still haven't proven that even if you do believe the verse is saying the skin will lose the characteristic of feeling pain that people back then didn't know that severe burns caused numbness.

I had given you a solid proof, which you have overlooked.

“If you scan entire human history and fail to find any hint that someone had the knowledge that burning the skin to a certain extent takes away its sensitivity to feel the pain then it is a clear indication that people in the past were not aware of this fact.”

paulpablo Wrote: "The cat sat in the hat" Doesn't contradict the teachings of modern science, because cats can sit in hats, but it isn't a miracle, NOT contradicting science doesn't mean something is a miracle.

Neither the particular cat nor the property of sitting in the hat makes “The cat sat in the hat” true; each might exist even if the sentence is false. But the fact that “the cat sat in the hat,” consisting of the cat instantiating the property of sitting in the hat, will do the job.

Scientific facts, which Quran has revealed, are conspicuous phenomenon in nature, which are unceasingly happening without need of any instantiation.

Cats demonstrate habitual patterns of actions, which are known to people for thousands of years. Such actions for sure cannot be a taken as miracle. However, if someone 500 years back have told that cats lack the ability to taste sweetness then it can be taken as miracle in consideration that back then people had no facilities to test this fact.

Here's this thread in a nutshell: Harris is taking things we already know well, and claiming that past knowledge according with current knowledge is a miracle.

To prove a miracle, Harris must do the following:
1) show something that does NOT accord with science in the Quran;
2) show that it is true. This is my criterion for consideration for miracle (really, just a meaning): that something contradict all we know and believe, and can be shown to be true.

Go out in a public place and question ten or fifteen people “What is a cat?” It would not be a surprise if all of them give correct answers.

Ask the same people “What Halocline is?” It would not be a surprise if all people would give you incorrect answers.

Perhaps, Halocline is too technical term therefore, you may ask them whether they are aware of the natural phenomenon or not that sweet water and salt water in natural environment do not mix because there is an unseen natural barrier that keeps the two bodies of water from mixing.

I am sure you will find that most of the people are not aware of this phenomenon because it is not as common as cats are.

If a substantial number of people in today’s world, despite the fact they have most modern communication gadgets in their hands, do not know what Halocline is then how comes people of seventh century living in the middle of a desert far from sea, ocean, and lakes have the knowledge about this rare natural phenomenon. There is no clue that people living in seventh century and before had the knowledge about this phenomenon yet Quran has mentioned it without any flaw.

Beside scientific facts, I had also pointed out one more miracle of Quran:

“And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?”
Al-Qamar (54)
-Verse 17-

There is not one person but millions of people who memorized Quran without having knowledge of Arabic.

Which science can explain how people memorize whole Quran word by word without having proper understanding of Arabic?

This is a miracle of miracles.

You have not yet submitted your counter argument with proper evidences and references and asking for more miracles. I think it would be wise if you first disprove my arguments by giving proper SCIENTIFIC explanations with proper references on how scientific facts get into Quran if no one in history was aware of these scientific facts.

Second point, what makes Quran so easy to remember that millions of people have memorised whole Quran word by word even without having knowledge of Arabic Language.

For sure, I will try to entertain you by giving some more surprises.

excitedpenguin Wrote:
By your own definition a miracle is impossible even to imagine, whereas a Christian would say Jesus coming down from the sky to raise the dead and take us into heaven would be a miracle, but that can be thought of. You can depict in your mind Jesus doing all those things. You can imagine a dead person coming out of a tomb. Hell, you see it on TV all the time. You can imagine heaven as some sort of place where ancient greeks used to chill out.

Bennyboy wrote:
I can easily imagine a miracle, and the ability to imagine has little to do with our understanding of how the universe works. Let's say a priest touches an armless man, and a new arm instantly grows. This violates what we believe about physical reality, in two ways: 1) it's biologically impossible, because human DNA doesn't allow the capacity for limb regeneration; 2) it's physically impossible, because the amount of resources required to achieve this feat (instant growth) would so ravage the rest of the body that it would probably cause instant death. So if a priest could achieve this, and he did so solely on the basis of an appeal to God and not some hidden technology, I'd definitely call it a miracle.

But a priest never prays for this, because he knows his prayer will be unanswered. Instead, he will pray for someone with a high fever, and claim a miracle when the fever breaks the next day.

Harris has used a double logic fail to arrive at his (obviously predetermined) conclusion. First, he claims that the existence hundreds of years ago of scientific knowledge is necessarily a miracle.

Then, he takes the simple idea of growth (obviously a new thing might "grow" into something greater over time), and imbues it with all the complexity and wonder of modern science. But unless he can show that the "expansion" in the Quran is really the "expansion" of the universe from the Big Bang singularity, then all he really has is a statement about new things growing, which has "miraculously" been known since people started having babies.

I had given you only nine scientific facts from Quran. The verses I had given you are clear and unambiguous.

If you think that people were aware of these facts before the revelation of Quran then bring your evidences and references in support of your claim. We are living in a scientific world and science loves facts and figures.

If you feel that nine scientific facts are heavy on you then by all means you may bring evidences at least for one scientific fact of your choice.

I was merely referring to your stated criterion for consideration for [a] miracle. That meaning of a miracle can't be imagined, as we can't imagine something that contradicts every single thing we know. Such a thing can't even exist, one would hope.

The ability to grow limbs without dying can be easily imagined as some creatures can actually do this. We might as well one day, if nano techonology continues evolving at the rate it does, at least that's what various futurists would have us believe.

No one has seen God, no one has heard God, and there is no way to access God by any physical means. In other words, we have no knowledge, no information, and no data about God and we have no way to feel God with our physical senses.

We are living in an oblivion, a state in which our minds are not capable to create ideas of the unknown God. Yet, out from THAT VERY OBLIVION the idea of unseen, unheard and untouched God not only emerged but in fact, it is part of our consciousness and that indeed is a miracle.

“It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.”
Qaaf (50)
-Verse 16-

I'm not afraid of suffering, I just suffer. There is no reason to believe in eternal torment. A life sentence like this is cruel enough.

dude. you said there are scientific facts in the quran. why not the germ theory? it could've been very useful. many people's lives would've been saved and its divinity would've been confirmed, because nobody would have heard of the germ theory unitl the 17th century,

Quran gives warnings to transgressors who in their arrogance deny the truths deliberately. On the other hand, it gives good tidings to people who keep themselves humble in front of God and do the righteous deeds.

Quran gives signs for people who ponder with wisdom. The subject of Quran is human not science.