Hello atheistforum

[Mister Agenda]

However, the nature of true evidence is that it leads someone who is initially skeptical to believe; religion turns it around because it has hit on the technique of getting potential recruits to convert themselves by convincing them that to give whatever religion they're selling a fair chance, they have to try believing it first and then getting the evidence. It's really very brilliant.

Sorry to quote myself. I thought I would go back and try to figure out what has brotherlylove thinking I'm proposing a conspiracy theory. I believe it's the bolded portion above, and somehow over the course of our conversation that has become a claim that the apostles knew there was no resurrection and died for it anyway.

To clarify, it is a claim that it is common for religous people to use the tactic of trying to get someone to believe and promising them they will get evidence once they've done so. It's a technique that brotherlylove used himself. It's brilliant because it is so effective: once you truly believe, of course you will perceive evidence confirming that you were right to do so. Most people don't know that any charismatic religion can induce brain states of acceptance, religious ecstacy, feeling loved, of belonging, and so forth; so they are easily led into 'trying it' and finding 'it delivers'; when they could have tried Voodoo or Sufism and gotten equally 'profound' results. I've even had a Wiccan try to convert me by claiming that once I performed a few rituals and seen how well they work, I'd know her beliefs were true. My sister-in-law went on a whole 'just try believing' campaign on me a few years ago. From the other side it seems ridiculous. I can't imagine trying to get someone to 'just try not believing' for a while in order to try to get them to give up their theism. But maybe it's because I don't really care if someone is a theist. It's not like they'll go to hell if I don't enlghten them, so I'm not tempted to trick them into it. If my evidence and arguments are unconvincing, I hope they have a nice day. And you never know what seeds you plant might eventually come to fruition. I've seen more than one Christian come to an atheist board only to switch sides after a few hundred posts (and I've seen the opposite, too). Being exposed to ideas outside your group can make a big difference.

But anyway, I was not trying to imply the apostles came upon this great brainwashing technique. I'm not even claiming they used it. It's not profound, and it's the kind of thing lots of people figure out independently: if you can get someone to agree to sincerely try to convince themselves your religion (or ideology, or self-help program, or psychic meditation regimen) really works/is true, they will do most of the hard work for you. The point I was making was about the proposal to believe first and trust the evidence will come; not about a conspiracy or anything to do with the apostles.