RE: everyone (else) seems to be hating on atheists
May 25, 2012 at 5:39 am
(This post was last modified: May 25, 2012 at 5:44 am by Creed of Heresy.)
Hoo hoo HOOO BOY YES, I've been waiting to get into a conversation on this topic.
I am going to point out the major flaws in your argument, Aiza, and I will start by quoting the article you cited.
Very important factor to mention, you are referring to state-sponsored atheism. You are basically saying that people who trade a god of theology for a god of government are the same who deny all gods. An atheist who desires to force other people to abide by his command considers himself a god, as only a god could possibly be in high enough power to ever consider his judgment superior to another's judgment based on sheer opinion.
As opposed to the entirety of Europe for over a thousand years being under the absolute dominion of the CATHOLIC CHURCH? Remember those days? With the Inquisition, and the public executions by burning at the stake for apostates, the confessions-by-torture, the church tithe, the crusades, all this shit that's already been hammered at like Megan Fox if she became a $5 whore and about as often?
These dictatorships are all totalitarian ones. They are not just in control of your body, but also of your mind. They want to control your very thoughts, feelings, and emotions. They are religions unto themselves in the guise of atheism, but a god is something all-powerful, is it not? And what is more all-powerful than the control of someone's thoughts, emotions, their very LIVES? Ohhhhh yes, Aiza. These ARE religious institutions, with the heads of state being the gods. They are not gods of the sky; they are gods of the state, the nation. "State atheism" may be the term, but it is in and of itself a paradox.
So you see why I immediately discard that as an example of cruelty by atheists towards the religious. And yes, some who have purported themselves to be atheists have done cruelty to religious individuals. And if you consider Stalin you might even say that atheists have done more cruelty to the religious than the religious have done to the atheists. Well, three things first: 1: We didn't have the same record-keeping of citizens 500+ years ago that we have attained in more modern history, only rough estimates, so that is not a very clear answer to make, and they DO occasionally find new sets of mass graves every so often of people burned or executed by the church, so the number is still technically climbing. 2: Remember that Stalin himself was in a sense a god. He didn't kill theists alone; nooo, he executed maaany Russian atheists too. You see, he targeted those who were threats to his power. He was a totalitarian, the god of state, and he eliminated those who threatened his status. The church just so happened to have a very large amount of sway still in Russia at that time. If there had been a united atheist/secularist group on that scale, bet your ass he would've massacred them, too. And finally, 3: Hitchens put it best when he ruminated on how he would have hoped religion would have more dignity than to constantly make the claim of "at least we're not as bad as these despots!"
Allow me to answer this with a quick detailed breakdown...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discriminat...ted_States
Yeah, above muslims, blacks, and gay people. You know, those people who are consistently considered the least-loved people in the US? Yeah, we atheists are loathed even more than them.
Now, to put that all into perspective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Religion
78.4% of the population of the US is christian, compared to 16.1% being Atheist/agnostic/irreligious. 48% of this country say that their child marrying an atheist would be worse than them marrying a black person, a muslim, and/or a gay person. Taking into consideration that none of the 16% of irreligious folk are going to say that their child marrying an atheist would be the worst thing imaginable, that squarely means that well over half of the christians in the US have only the absolutely worst views of atheists and therefore have NO positive views of atheists AT ALL. This is a majority Christian nation; I highly doubt that they encounter many atheists but trust me when I, an atheist who will freely admit to being one when inquired but ONLY when inquired, say that most Christians are a load of dicks when it comes to talking about atheists, ok? I've felt curiosity about that very same issue myself, in fact. I have played who I used to be, a Methodist, on Christian forums and lightly inquired about atheists and received a fiery, scathing response from many, MANY of their number who rarely have anything nice to say on the topic.
And finally:
I hope you are taking into account that people with religious beliefs who have psychological disorders often take them as being religious experiences and that people who are atheists are far more likely to see such psychological disorders for exactly what they are: psychological disorders, whereas the religious claim the issues are caused by "demons" and "possession" and "the holy ghost" and "being gifted" and other such tripe.
I highly doubt you did, however. Your perception, you will pardon me for noticing, is limited only to your own views and does not extend much beyond it from what I have seen thus far.
Uhhhhh. You ARE joking, right? Do you know ANYTHING about the Inquisition? Have you ever noticed how the concept of atheism seems really low-key if it even exists at all during the last 2000 years?? You are now starting to talk right out of your ass and it's starting to kill my opinion of you REALLY fucking fast, it's like a white person saying "What are you black people so angry at white people for? It's not like you guys were ENSLAVED or anything, jeez!" Because YES. YES WE WERE prosecuted, and HEAVILY. To avow atheism within earshot of the church or its toadies was an instantaneous death sentence in the middle ages. Well, not instantaneous, you usually got the rack or the wedge or the horse or something else equally as horrific.
I am going to point out the major flaws in your argument, Aiza, and I will start by quoting the article you cited.
Quote:State atheism is the official promotion of atheism by a government, sometimes combined with active suppression of religious freedom and practice. In contrast, a secular state purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.
Very important factor to mention, you are referring to state-sponsored atheism. You are basically saying that people who trade a god of theology for a god of government are the same who deny all gods. An atheist who desires to force other people to abide by his command considers himself a god, as only a god could possibly be in high enough power to ever consider his judgment superior to another's judgment based on sheer opinion.
Quote:Only one country went so far as to officially ban the practice of religion and close down all religious places of worship: Albania under Enver Hoxha.
As opposed to the entirety of Europe for over a thousand years being under the absolute dominion of the CATHOLIC CHURCH? Remember those days? With the Inquisition, and the public executions by burning at the stake for apostates, the confessions-by-torture, the church tithe, the crusades, all this shit that's already been hammered at like Megan Fox if she became a $5 whore and about as often?
These dictatorships are all totalitarian ones. They are not just in control of your body, but also of your mind. They want to control your very thoughts, feelings, and emotions. They are religions unto themselves in the guise of atheism, but a god is something all-powerful, is it not? And what is more all-powerful than the control of someone's thoughts, emotions, their very LIVES? Ohhhhh yes, Aiza. These ARE religious institutions, with the heads of state being the gods. They are not gods of the sky; they are gods of the state, the nation. "State atheism" may be the term, but it is in and of itself a paradox.
So you see why I immediately discard that as an example of cruelty by atheists towards the religious. And yes, some who have purported themselves to be atheists have done cruelty to religious individuals. And if you consider Stalin you might even say that atheists have done more cruelty to the religious than the religious have done to the atheists. Well, three things first: 1: We didn't have the same record-keeping of citizens 500+ years ago that we have attained in more modern history, only rough estimates, so that is not a very clear answer to make, and they DO occasionally find new sets of mass graves every so often of people burned or executed by the church, so the number is still technically climbing. 2: Remember that Stalin himself was in a sense a god. He didn't kill theists alone; nooo, he executed maaany Russian atheists too. You see, he targeted those who were threats to his power. He was a totalitarian, the god of state, and he eliminated those who threatened his status. The church just so happened to have a very large amount of sway still in Russia at that time. If there had been a united atheist/secularist group on that scale, bet your ass he would've massacred them, too. And finally, 3: Hitchens put it best when he ruminated on how he would have hoped religion would have more dignity than to constantly make the claim of "at least we're not as bad as these despots!"
Quote:Sure. And how much of your time do you think atheists spend "pointing out the flaws" in "theists" vs. time religious people spend pointing out the flaws in atheists? The point is that there is more negativity going one way vs. the other at least in my experience.
Allow me to answer this with a quick detailed breakdown...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discriminat...ted_States
Quote:Atheists note that few politicians have been willing to identify as non-theists, since until recently such revelations would have been considered "political suicide", and welcomed Democratic California Representative Pete Stark's 2007 decision to come out as the first openly nontheistic member of Congress. In 2009, City Councilman Cecil Bothwell of Asheville, North Carolina was called "unworthy of his seat" because of his open atheism. Indeed, several polls have shown that about 50 percent of Americans would not vote for a well-qualified atheist for president. A 2006 study found that 40% of respondents characterized atheists as a group that did "not at all agree with my vision of American society", and that 48% would not want their child to marry an atheist. In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.
Yeah, above muslims, blacks, and gay people. You know, those people who are consistently considered the least-loved people in the US? Yeah, we atheists are loathed even more than them.
Quote: Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behaviour, extreme materialism, and elitism. Atheists and atheist organizations have alleged discrimination against atheists in the military, and recently, with the development of the Army's Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program, atheists have alleged institutionalized discrimination. In several child custody court rulings, the parents of atheists have been discriminated against, either directly or indirectly. As child custody laws in the United States, are often based on the "best interests of the child" principle, they leave family court judges ample room to consider a parent’s ideology when settling a custody case. Atheism, lack of religious observation and regular church attendance, and the inability to prove one's willingness and capacity to attend to religion with his children, have been used to deny custody to non-religious parents.
Now, to put that all into perspective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Religion
Quote:According to a 2007 survey, 78.4% of adults identified themselves as Christian, down from 86.4% in 1990. Protestant denominations accounted for 51.3%, while Roman Catholicism, at 23.9%, was the largest individual denomination. The study categorizes white evangelicals, 26.3% of the population, as the country's largest religious cohort; another study estimates evangelicals of all races at 30–35%. The total reporting non-Christian religions in 2007 was 4.7%, up from 3.3% in 1990. The leading non-Christian faiths were Judaism (1.7%), Buddhism (0.7%), Islam (0.6%), Hinduism (0.4%), and Unitarian Universalism (0.3%). The survey also reported that 16.1% of Americans described themselves as agnostic, atheist, or simply having no religion, up from 8.2% in 1990.
78.4% of the population of the US is christian, compared to 16.1% being Atheist/agnostic/irreligious. 48% of this country say that their child marrying an atheist would be worse than them marrying a black person, a muslim, and/or a gay person. Taking into consideration that none of the 16% of irreligious folk are going to say that their child marrying an atheist would be the worst thing imaginable, that squarely means that well over half of the christians in the US have only the absolutely worst views of atheists and therefore have NO positive views of atheists AT ALL. This is a majority Christian nation; I highly doubt that they encounter many atheists but trust me when I, an atheist who will freely admit to being one when inquired but ONLY when inquired, say that most Christians are a load of dicks when it comes to talking about atheists, ok? I've felt curiosity about that very same issue myself, in fact. I have played who I used to be, a Methodist, on Christian forums and lightly inquired about atheists and received a fiery, scathing response from many, MANY of their number who rarely have anything nice to say on the topic.
And finally:
Quote:Irreligion also correlates with psychoticism and social maladjustment.
I hope you are taking into account that people with religious beliefs who have psychological disorders often take them as being religious experiences and that people who are atheists are far more likely to see such psychological disorders for exactly what they are: psychological disorders, whereas the religious claim the issues are caused by "demons" and "possession" and "the holy ghost" and "being gifted" and other such tripe.
I highly doubt you did, however. Your perception, you will pardon me for noticing, is limited only to your own views and does not extend much beyond it from what I have seen thus far.
(May 25, 2012 at 5:09 am)Aiza Wrote: But again: it ends at the unfair stereotype and mild distrust. When it comes to real hate crimes or persecutions, atheists by far get off rather easy. There's never been a state-sponsored mass-murder of atheists like there has been for...well nearly anyone else, and atheists are pretty well underrepresented in terms of being the victims of hate crimes, unlike Jews or Muslims. So for me these sorts of threads bring up mixed feelings: while stereotypes are wrong and I don't want people to distrust atheists....can you really pretend like you have it the worst, when atheists haven't suffered half the persecution as most other groups, and almost no violence at all?
Uhhhhh. You ARE joking, right? Do you know ANYTHING about the Inquisition? Have you ever noticed how the concept of atheism seems really low-key if it even exists at all during the last 2000 years?? You are now starting to talk right out of your ass and it's starting to kill my opinion of you REALLY fucking fast, it's like a white person saying "What are you black people so angry at white people for? It's not like you guys were ENSLAVED or anything, jeez!" Because YES. YES WE WERE prosecuted, and HEAVILY. To avow atheism within earshot of the church or its toadies was an instantaneous death sentence in the middle ages. Well, not instantaneous, you usually got the rack or the wedge or the horse or something else equally as horrific.
