For the patience shown in this post I want a new category for member awards titled "The moron whisperer", and I'd like to see her get the first one by popular acclaim.
Ignoring for the moment that this is yet another bare assertion which isn't supported by any evidence from the NDEs themselves, this presents yet another problem for you. If the original god figure who presents himself is not the "real" god, and the real god only presents him or herself once the welcome is over, then how does one determine that the welcome is indeed over and one is in fact experiencing reality? One can easily imagine an infinite regress of slightly less "unreal" presentations, stretching backward such that one never actually arrives at the true reality, or, at the very least, one has no way of knowing when that point has been reached and thus one is then comprehending the real reality.
You've simply replaced one illusory experience with a series of them that has no identifiable end. How did you determine that God has no human figure? Perhaps the God that has no human figure is but a prelude to the real God who does have a human figure. This is simply something you've once again concluded based upon the spiritual/religious dogmas that you believe, rather than based upon any evidence. Once you've introduced the notion that any god figure presented in an NDE is illusory, you've undermined any rationale possible for claiming that this or that particular NDE content is not illusory. As far as you know, it's turtles all the way down, and you never encounter reality. You've effectively denied yourself the ability to claim anything based on the content of NDEs. You've cut your nose off to spite your face.
This makes the second time that I've explained the same point, and you still show no sign whatsoever of comprehending the problem, or even showing any sign that you've read my explanation. (It's right above in my post. Read it, dumbass.)
As explained, I'm not disputing that NDEs are in some sense real here, only that you cannot demonstrate that the content of the OBE is not a result of clairvoyance/clairaudience, instead of a result of consciousness leaving the body. No leaving the body means no reincarnation. In order to show that consciousness leaves the body in an OBE, you have to demonstrate that the OBE experience is not a result of clairvoyance/clairaudience.
You complain that I don't read NDE accounts, yet you appear unable to even read what is written in a simple post. I can only conclude that your inability to "get it" is either that you have incurable reading comprehension problems, or that you are just terminally stupid. And once again you accuse me of claiming that NDEs are bullshit. Again, your slander is simply unsupported. Throughout this discussion I have continually granted that the accounts of NDEs are genuine, I have only disputed the conclusions that one can infer from those accounts. And since in the past two posts you, yourself, have held out that some of the content of NDEs is illusory, and not an accurate representation of an underlying reality, then I have no need to dispute the NDEs' contents directly.
Given that I've explained the above point to you twice and you still fail to grasp it, I'm likely not going to repeat the explanation yet again if it comes up. I'll simply cut & paste my previous responses which you have yet to actually address.
If you had actually established it, then your point here might be relevant. Unfortunately for you, it's yet another claim that isn't supported by the evidence.
None of this answers the points already raised. You keep repeating the same faulty crap. I don't need to claim that some of the content in NDEs is not real because you, yourself, have claimed as much in point #1 of your previous post, HERE, as well as in your nonsense above about the potential traumatic nature of being greeted in an NDE with the actual reality, instead of an illusory experience of the god or gods that one is used to and has come to expect.
Inventing bullshit terms to attempt to hide your ignorance won't help you here. But as long as you're suffering under the delusion that it will, I'll point out that there is no difference between the local existence of entropy and any supposed difference at some alleged "UNIVERSAL" level. As above, so below. The entropy of the universe is basically a corollary of the first law of thermodynamics. If you have any evidence that the first law of thermodynamics is violated anywhere, I suggest you write up your evidence, submit your paper to the journal Nature, and then stand back and wait for them to deliver your Nobel prize.
UNIVERSAL entropy and plain old entropy are the same thing. You're just attempting to bullshit your way out of things yet again.
But fear not, as I said, this won't help you anyway, even if I grant you what you desire, that supposedly the entropy of the universe is not sufficient to supply all the energy needs of the universe. Even in that case, you have only demonstrated the existence of "a god," which is not necessarily the same as "your god," whom I've taken to calling Yoga God. In your mad scramble to evict yourself from the latest hole that you've dug for yourself, you lost sight of the prize, which was to demonstrate, with evidence, the existence of karma and reincarnation. It doesn't help you to prove "a god" unless you can demonstrate that this god is "your god." Many Christian theologians posit that their god is actually the source of sustenance and order in the universe. As Christian theologian Paul Tillich opined, "God is ... the ground and the power of being...". So even if I granted you your claim that a god is necessary to provide the energy needs of the universe, that is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate that this god is a god of reincarnation and karma. So, tough luck, but you've failed once again. If Christian God is the real god, then Yoga God is not. Nothing about your argument proves things one way or the other.
I can understand your curiosity in asking this question, as it's apparent from your posts that you are completely unacquainted with reality. But enough trash talk, on to something of substance.
By your own account, people encounter the version of god they are expecting when they have an NDE, and thus the god which appears in a persons NDE is not the true, real God underlying all of reality. So you've presented someone who encountered Yoga God. Big deal. By your own argument, this Yoga God who is talking about karma and reincarnation is not the real god. According to you, god has no human form, so obviously this Yoga God whom she has encountered is a mere fiction to prevent her from being traumatized by an unfamiliar reality. As such, his words and actions aren't an accurate representation of the true reality, but rather simply a reflection of her cultural expectations. For all we know, if her NDE had lasted longer, this Yoga God might have proceeded to peel back his face to reveal Jesus God, who would then explain that "no, reincarnation and karma are not real," he was only telling her that so as not to traumatize her with an unexpected divinity and reality. Ultimately, until you resolve the contradiction described in my first point above, presenting evidence from NDE accounts is pointless as you've essentially established that it is impossible to tell what is and is not real in an NDE.
So, no, this NDE doesn't demonstrate that karma and reincarnation are real, it only shows that you have a penchant for tripping over your own balls in your attempt to make a coherent case for reincarnation and karma. That is, assuming you have balls.
You have failed again and again and again. And what shakes out is that you have no evidence to support your belief in karma and reincarnation.
![[Image: wrestling%20fail.jpg]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/v3ilm9w8npkxzbf/wrestling%20fail.jpg)
[/hide]
(March 17, 2018 at 10:57 am)Little Rik Wrote: Sorry yog but you are a lot more stupid than I thought.
A welcome in the other dimension can not be traumatic.
Suppose a Christian that for all his-her life saw God as a person represented by Jesus see instead a welcoming Buddha or the other way around in which a Buddhist see Jesus to welcoming in heaven.
Wouldn't he-she be shocked?
Once the welcome is over then the reality take place and the person understand that God has no human figure.
Ignoring for the moment that this is yet another bare assertion which isn't supported by any evidence from the NDEs themselves, this presents yet another problem for you. If the original god figure who presents himself is not the "real" god, and the real god only presents him or herself once the welcome is over, then how does one determine that the welcome is indeed over and one is in fact experiencing reality? One can easily imagine an infinite regress of slightly less "unreal" presentations, stretching backward such that one never actually arrives at the true reality, or, at the very least, one has no way of knowing when that point has been reached and thus one is then comprehending the real reality.
You've simply replaced one illusory experience with a series of them that has no identifiable end. How did you determine that God has no human figure? Perhaps the God that has no human figure is but a prelude to the real God who does have a human figure. This is simply something you've once again concluded based upon the spiritual/religious dogmas that you believe, rather than based upon any evidence. Once you've introduced the notion that any god figure presented in an NDE is illusory, you've undermined any rationale possible for claiming that this or that particular NDE content is not illusory. As far as you know, it's turtles all the way down, and you never encounter reality. You've effectively denied yourself the ability to claim anything based on the content of NDEs. You've cut your nose off to spite your face.
(March 17, 2018 at 10:57 am)Little Rik Wrote: Your problem spring from the fact that or you hardly read any NDEs or even if you read them you do not believe them.
In any case there is no point in arguing but if you want to argue the evidence is there.
The evidence in all cases is on my side.
Why?
Because NDEs can be proven.
Real people who had an NDE exist.
Hospitals that can support the evidence that these people were there exist.
Doctors that witness these people dead exist.
Doctors that witness these people alive again exist.
People that witness all these things exist so obviously all this is verifiable not BS.
This makes the second time that I've explained the same point, and you still show no sign whatsoever of comprehending the problem, or even showing any sign that you've read my explanation. (It's right above in my post. Read it, dumbass.)
As explained, I'm not disputing that NDEs are in some sense real here, only that you cannot demonstrate that the content of the OBE is not a result of clairvoyance/clairaudience, instead of a result of consciousness leaving the body. No leaving the body means no reincarnation. In order to show that consciousness leaves the body in an OBE, you have to demonstrate that the OBE experience is not a result of clairvoyance/clairaudience.
You complain that I don't read NDE accounts, yet you appear unable to even read what is written in a simple post. I can only conclude that your inability to "get it" is either that you have incurable reading comprehension problems, or that you are just terminally stupid. And once again you accuse me of claiming that NDEs are bullshit. Again, your slander is simply unsupported. Throughout this discussion I have continually granted that the accounts of NDEs are genuine, I have only disputed the conclusions that one can infer from those accounts. And since in the past two posts you, yourself, have held out that some of the content of NDEs is illusory, and not an accurate representation of an underlying reality, then I have no need to dispute the NDEs' contents directly.
Given that I've explained the above point to you twice and you still fail to grasp it, I'm likely not going to repeat the explanation yet again if it comes up. I'll simply cut & paste my previous responses which you have yet to actually address.
(March 17, 2018 at 10:57 am)Little Rik Wrote: No need for me to established what has already been established.
If you had actually established it, then your point here might be relevant. Unfortunately for you, it's yet another claim that isn't supported by the evidence.
(March 17, 2018 at 10:57 am)Little Rik Wrote: Wrong once again yog.
As I already explained above NDEs are real BECAUSE those people are real, hospitals and doctors are real and witnesses are real.
You on the contrary haven't been able to contradict the veracity of all of this.
None of this answers the points already raised. You keep repeating the same faulty crap. I don't need to claim that some of the content in NDEs is not real because you, yourself, have claimed as much in point #1 of your previous post, HERE, as well as in your nonsense above about the potential traumatic nature of being greeted in an NDE with the actual reality, instead of an illusory experience of the god or gods that one is used to and has come to expect.
(March 17, 2018 at 10:57 am)Little Rik Wrote: IDIOT.
Read my answer to Tiz in which I explain my point on UNIVERSAL entropy.
Inventing bullshit terms to attempt to hide your ignorance won't help you here. But as long as you're suffering under the delusion that it will, I'll point out that there is no difference between the local existence of entropy and any supposed difference at some alleged "UNIVERSAL" level. As above, so below. The entropy of the universe is basically a corollary of the first law of thermodynamics. If you have any evidence that the first law of thermodynamics is violated anywhere, I suggest you write up your evidence, submit your paper to the journal Nature, and then stand back and wait for them to deliver your Nobel prize.
UNIVERSAL entropy and plain old entropy are the same thing. You're just attempting to bullshit your way out of things yet again.
But fear not, as I said, this won't help you anyway, even if I grant you what you desire, that supposedly the entropy of the universe is not sufficient to supply all the energy needs of the universe. Even in that case, you have only demonstrated the existence of "a god," which is not necessarily the same as "your god," whom I've taken to calling Yoga God. In your mad scramble to evict yourself from the latest hole that you've dug for yourself, you lost sight of the prize, which was to demonstrate, with evidence, the existence of karma and reincarnation. It doesn't help you to prove "a god" unless you can demonstrate that this god is "your god." Many Christian theologians posit that their god is actually the source of sustenance and order in the universe. As Christian theologian Paul Tillich opined, "God is ... the ground and the power of being...". So even if I granted you your claim that a god is necessary to provide the energy needs of the universe, that is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate that this god is a god of reincarnation and karma. So, tough luck, but you've failed once again. If Christian God is the real god, then Yoga God is not. Nothing about your argument proves things one way or the other.
(March 17, 2018 at 10:57 am)Little Rik Wrote: Reality hurt yog, doesn't it?
I can understand your curiosity in asking this question, as it's apparent from your posts that you are completely unacquainted with reality. But enough trash talk, on to something of substance.
(March 17, 2018 at 10:57 am)Little Rik Wrote: Here one of the many NDEs in which God explain about karma and reincarnation.
http://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1cathleen_c_nde.html
By your own account, people encounter the version of god they are expecting when they have an NDE, and thus the god which appears in a persons NDE is not the true, real God underlying all of reality. So you've presented someone who encountered Yoga God. Big deal. By your own argument, this Yoga God who is talking about karma and reincarnation is not the real god. According to you, god has no human form, so obviously this Yoga God whom she has encountered is a mere fiction to prevent her from being traumatized by an unfamiliar reality. As such, his words and actions aren't an accurate representation of the true reality, but rather simply a reflection of her cultural expectations. For all we know, if her NDE had lasted longer, this Yoga God might have proceeded to peel back his face to reveal Jesus God, who would then explain that "no, reincarnation and karma are not real," he was only telling her that so as not to traumatize her with an unexpected divinity and reality. Ultimately, until you resolve the contradiction described in my first point above, presenting evidence from NDE accounts is pointless as you've essentially established that it is impossible to tell what is and is not real in an NDE.
So, no, this NDE doesn't demonstrate that karma and reincarnation are real, it only shows that you have a penchant for tripping over your own balls in your attempt to make a coherent case for reincarnation and karma. That is, assuming you have balls.
You have failed again and again and again. And what shakes out is that you have no evidence to support your belief in karma and reincarnation.
[/hide]
