Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: May 13, 2024, 3:27 pm

Poll: Who should use science to support their beliefs?
This poll is closed.
Everyone
58.82%
10 58.82%
Atheists only
5.88%
1 5.88%
Theists only
0%
0 0%
Other
35.29%
6 35.29%
Total 17 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Ownership of Science
RE: The Ownership of Science
(November 3, 2021 at 11:07 am)GaryAnderson Wrote:
(November 3, 2021 at 11:03 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Not really, but if we have to argue What Is Words And How Do They Do!?! from the outset, your objections are almost certainly going to be inane.

Pretty simple, and simply inane.  The universe isn't fine tuned for life.  You're a puddle of water marveling at how perfectly the hole was made for you.  Your hypothetical theist is wrong on the facts - and spouting speudoscientific claptrap, instead.
You need to look this up more but the universe is fine-tuned for life and this is confirmed and mentioned by many scientists. This means that you don’t like theists using this fact to support their position.

Your thoughts around the above are very presumptuous and make many assumptions. 

"Life" as you likely define it is carbon based and requires a bunch of universal constants to be just so, solid planets, as well as availability of raw matter and local parameters such as temperature range to provide liquid water into the mix for good measure. 

That is far too narrow a definition. We have no idea whether:
1. Life in our Universe can potentially be based on other elements altogether, ie. not carbon based but for instance Silicon and Ammonia based instead
2. Life in other universes with different universal constants could take completely different forms which we can't even imagine

The point being you are trying to making assertions of "truth" from a very limited field of reference.

The reason why it appears to you that the Universe is fine-tuned for life is that you happen to be alive on a seemingly perfect, solid, goldilocks-zone planet, surrounding a stable, long lived star, in an area of our Milky Way galaxy that has not had any catastrophic events within a Universe that allows this type of thing to randomly form. If you happen to be alive in a different Universe where, say, atoms (and therefore planets) don't exist, everything is floating in a primordial soup, and you are made of something other than atoms, then you would probably come to the conclusion that those are the perfect and only conditions that support life. 

Humans thinking that we are somehow "special" is one of the great fallacies. The more we learn about the world we live in, the more we come to realise that we are not special at all.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 10:47 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 10:52 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Brian37 - November 3, 2021 at 10:56 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 10:57 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Mister Agenda - November 4, 2021 at 1:23 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Mister Agenda - November 4, 2021 at 2:08 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Neo-Scholastic - November 4, 2021 at 2:24 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 3, 2021 at 10:58 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:00 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Brian37 - November 4, 2021 at 4:55 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 4, 2021 at 5:39 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by slartibartfast - November 4, 2021 at 2:39 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by zwanzig - November 3, 2021 at 11:01 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 11:03 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Neo-Scholastic - November 3, 2021 at 11:28 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:04 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 11:11 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Alan V - November 4, 2021 at 2:26 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Neo-Scholastic - November 4, 2021 at 4:30 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Angrboda - November 4, 2021 at 5:58 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Neo-Scholastic - November 4, 2021 at 6:32 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 6, 2021 at 2:20 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Neo-Scholastic - November 6, 2021 at 6:49 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 6, 2021 at 7:43 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 11:06 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:07 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Deesse23 - November 3, 2021 at 11:08 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 3, 2021 at 11:09 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Simon Moon - November 3, 2021 at 11:37 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Paleophyte - November 3, 2021 at 7:27 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 7:54 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Paleophyte - November 3, 2021 at 8:02 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 8:16 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Paleophyte - November 3, 2021 at 9:14 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by slartibartfast - November 3, 2021 at 8:24 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 8:51 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 9:35 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 9:43 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 10:04 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by slartibartfast - November 4, 2021 at 1:51 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by LadyForCamus - November 3, 2021 at 8:26 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by slartibartfast - November 3, 2021 at 7:47 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 3, 2021 at 11:07 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Deesse23 - November 3, 2021 at 11:07 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 3, 2021 at 11:07 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by zwanzig - November 3, 2021 at 11:10 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:11 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Fake Messiah - November 3, 2021 at 11:12 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 11:12 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:17 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Deesse23 - November 3, 2021 at 11:26 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Angrboda - November 3, 2021 at 4:04 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 3, 2021 at 11:17 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 11:18 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Nay_Sayer - November 3, 2021 at 11:20 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:20 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Fake Messiah - November 3, 2021 at 11:33 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 11:22 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Simon Moon - November 3, 2021 at 11:26 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Peebo-Thuhlu - November 3, 2021 at 11:32 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:33 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:35 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Fake Messiah - November 3, 2021 at 11:49 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Brian37 - November 3, 2021 at 11:40 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:43 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 11:45 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:49 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 11:55 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 11:51 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:55 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Brian37 - November 3, 2021 at 12:10 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 11:55 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 12:02 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 11:57 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 12:06 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 12:25 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 12:28 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 12:10 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by LadyForCamus - November 3, 2021 at 12:11 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 12:12 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 3, 2021 at 12:31 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 12:13 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by LadyForCamus - November 3, 2021 at 12:16 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by zebo-the-fat - November 3, 2021 at 1:47 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ranjr - November 3, 2021 at 1:53 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 1:54 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 1:56 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 2:08 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 2:10 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 2:11 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 2:36 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 2:14 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 2:18 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Abaddon_ire - November 3, 2021 at 2:42 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 2:20 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 2:21 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 2:24 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 2:51 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 3:40 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 2:40 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 2:45 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 2:52 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 2:54 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 2:59 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 3, 2021 at 3:06 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Neo-Scholastic - November 3, 2021 at 3:21 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 3:28 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Abaddon_ire - November 3, 2021 at 3:36 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:10 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 3, 2021 at 3:11 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ranjr - November 3, 2021 at 3:11 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 3:13 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:15 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 3:19 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:22 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 3:25 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:26 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 3:27 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:33 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 3:48 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by LadyForCamus - November 3, 2021 at 3:52 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:40 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 3:47 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Abaddon_ire - November 3, 2021 at 3:54 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Simon Moon - November 3, 2021 at 4:10 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 4:50 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:49 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 3:52 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:52 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 3:54 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:56 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 3:57 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 4:00 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Abaddon_ire - November 3, 2021 at 4:05 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 4:04 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 4:24 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 4:08 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 4:10 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 3, 2021 at 4:11 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 4:12 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 3, 2021 at 5:38 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by LadyForCamus - November 3, 2021 at 7:05 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Simon Moon - November 3, 2021 at 7:19 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 4:19 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 4:22 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 4:23 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 4:28 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by arewethereyet - November 3, 2021 at 4:52 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 4:53 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Oldandeasilyconfused - November 3, 2021 at 5:29 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 4:58 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 5:13 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 5:16 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GaryAnderson - November 3, 2021 at 5:17 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 5:18 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 5:34 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 3, 2021 at 5:41 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Architect Of Fate - November 3, 2021 at 5:46 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GUBU - November 3, 2021 at 6:38 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by slartibartfast - November 3, 2021 at 8:05 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by GUBU - November 8, 2021 at 4:01 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Foxaèr - November 3, 2021 at 7:09 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by no one - November 3, 2021 at 7:22 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Architect Of Fate - November 3, 2021 at 8:27 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by arewethereyet - November 3, 2021 at 8:31 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 8:55 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Foxaèr - November 3, 2021 at 8:56 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 9:01 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by LadyForCamus - November 3, 2021 at 9:10 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 9:22 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 9:32 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 9:38 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 10:04 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 9:39 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by LadyForCamus - November 3, 2021 at 10:00 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 10:02 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 10:04 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Paleophyte - November 3, 2021 at 10:14 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 10:19 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 10:20 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 10:24 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 10:27 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 10:31 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Paleophyte - November 3, 2021 at 10:37 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 10:40 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Paleophyte - November 3, 2021 at 10:50 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 10:44 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Simon Moon - November 4, 2021 at 11:12 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 4, 2021 at 11:45 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 4, 2021 at 12:21 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by vulcanlogician - November 4, 2021 at 12:35 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by LadyForCamus - November 4, 2021 at 12:37 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 4, 2021 at 12:37 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Jehanne - November 3, 2021 at 10:36 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Architect Of Fate - November 3, 2021 at 9:04 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 9:39 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 9:49 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 9:51 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 9:52 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by vulcanlogician - November 3, 2021 at 10:04 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Paleophyte - November 3, 2021 at 10:26 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 9:59 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 10:01 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 10:04 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 10:09 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 10:11 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 10:15 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 10:33 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 10:36 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 10:35 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 3, 2021 at 10:44 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Anomalocaris - November 3, 2021 at 10:49 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 3, 2021 at 10:50 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by arewethereyet - November 3, 2021 at 11:42 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Abaddon_ire - November 3, 2021 at 11:59 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2021 at 10:47 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 4, 2021 at 3:51 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 4, 2021 at 7:33 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ahriman - November 4, 2021 at 7:55 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 4, 2021 at 8:04 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Foxaèr - November 4, 2021 at 5:57 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 4, 2021 at 6:10 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Foxaèr - November 4, 2021 at 8:03 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Ranjr - November 4, 2021 at 11:54 am
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Spongebob - November 4, 2021 at 12:02 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 4, 2021 at 12:15 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Valkyrie - November 4, 2021 at 1:59 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 4, 2021 at 2:40 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by slartibartfast - November 4, 2021 at 3:01 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by arewethereyet - November 4, 2021 at 3:21 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 4, 2021 at 4:32 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 4, 2021 at 3:54 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Architect Of Fate - November 4, 2021 at 4:07 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Grand Nudger - November 4, 2021 at 4:37 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 4, 2021 at 9:52 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by brewer - November 6, 2021 at 12:57 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Architect Of Fate - November 6, 2021 at 5:06 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Oldandeasilyconfused - November 6, 2021 at 5:14 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by The Architect Of Fate - November 6, 2021 at 7:48 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by Rahn127 - November 10, 2021 at 5:31 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by zebo-the-fat - November 10, 2021 at 6:10 pm
RE: The Ownership of Science - by T.J. - November 11, 2021 at 7:48 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science FifthElement 23 7843 June 25, 2013 at 10:54 am
Last Post: Rahul
  Science Laughs: Science Comedian Brian Malow orogenicman 4 4301 December 10, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Last Post: Lethe



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)