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The Israel question.
#11
RE: The Israel question.
(December 27, 2011 at 10:32 am)5thHorseman Wrote: I would like to understand a bit more about Israel from the perspective of Americans. It seems to be a question everytime an election is coming around 'what's your stance on Israel?' Albeit it seems more of a Republican question.

Why does America care so much about Israel? Is it strategic positioning? Sympathy/empathy? Friend in the Middle East?

Why do people like Newt Gingrich hate Palestine? Can they not see that Israel insane right wing Zionists are themselves a major problem?

I used to be a supporter of Israel but have come to dislike its politics and aparteid style treatment of Palestinians, who although they don't do themselves any favours by voting in terrorists like Hamas, do not deserve to be treated like prisoners in their own land.

Why the love for a country that is oppresive to millions of Palestinians?

I'd like to know your views.

I think there's a wide discrepancy between what the US government thinks about Israel and what the US people think. Don't look at people like Newt Gingrich as a representation of what anyone in the US thinks. Politicians here tend to be very out of touch with the general public, as they are everywhere.

The reason why the government likes Israel is that it is a "friendly" presence in an otherwise hostile area of the world. The US, also has the largest jewish population in the world, outside of Israel itself. On top of that, there's a sense of governmental empathy toward the jewish population, still, from the whole genocide thing.

As far as the US population, there's just as many opinions as there are people. Me personally, I tend to agree that it was probably a bad idea to establish a state in an already volatile area of the world. It is more frustrating that there is so much conflict over a piece of land, and that conflict is 100% driven by religious and "racial" intolerance. It is all so avoidable by taking religion out of the picture. That being said, to me, the jews always seem like the lesser of two evils in that region, as the jewish religion has a reputation as being uninterested in making everyone a part of their religion and killing you if you're not.
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#12
RE: The Israel question.
(December 27, 2011 at 10:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: It's probably a combination of strategic positioning/friends/affinity through faith/responsibility to a nation we essentially created.

That's the major reason -- the geopolitical position of Israel in the Middle East and their affinity for wet works gives the US rather extreme flexibility, allowing it to collect intelligence, resources, et al while allowing it to plot/identify and kill off opposition to US/Israeli interests.

Never forget what the US gets out of Israel (as much as what Israel gets out of the US).

Furthermore, from a geopolitical standpoint, Israel is the closest we have to a fortified stronghold in the Middle East. We lose Israel, we might as well lose the entire Middle East (or so my foreign policy friend intimated to me).
Slave to the Patriarchy no more
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#13
RE: The Israel question.
Re OP:

Maybe it's because Jews run Hollywood. Hollywood runs the media propaganda machine. The propaganda machine influences the public vote. The public vote keeps elected officials in office and therefore the politicians keep the Jews happy by supporting Israel.


I don't actually know ... I'm just being a wisenheimer
[Image: Evolution.png]

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#14
RE: The Israel question.
I always had a neutral opinion on Israel. And I would have even had a positive opinion on it if it weren't such a staunchly Western-backed state right under our noses..
But obviously, the reason Israel exists today is because the west backs it up.
It is impossible to even think how a tiny jew nation of five million can swin in an arab sea, even with a wide range of tech devices.
Like they do not have lascannons or enormous, large caliber guns that fire high-velocity, rocket propelled rounds, not that it would matter even if they had, if the arab would ever to unite, Israel would be wiped off of the earth's surface...
Personally, I can't really blame neither the arab, nor the jew.

Jews came there for idealistic reasons. I can respect that. They came, and they conquered more than it was their share to begin with.
The arabs didn't honestly try to battle this new foe, even though palestine(the British mandate of) was not to be completely theirs, it certainly is now.
The arabs fled to neighboring countries, where they were again, met with hostility, or were the cause of the hostility themselves.
Silly arabs, if you had no intentions of uniting, why the hell did you rebel against our Sultan in the first place? Tsk tsk tsk..
Now, this thing had gone out of hand.
The question remains as long as people want it to remain.
For peace, I have only, so far, seen a few options.
1-A single state. Jew and arab are both equal citizens under a common law. Jews cannot emigrate to Israel any longer.
2-Jews flee the holy lands, go off to some place else. This also seems plausible, as there are many Israelis who are living abroad now. I'll be as bold as to say that the number of immigrants TO Israel will soon be lower than the numbers of Jews that immigrate FROM Israel to somewhere else.
3-The arabs accept their fate, and stop taking any more action against Israel of any kind, just like they're requested.

The third option does not seem very plausible, but as I said, the chance of arabs "uniting" are very slim, not just due to the after WWI events, like partitioning of arab territories between British and French mandates and dependencies, but also due to the fact that the arabs have been divided into smaller nations, even though there is an official "arab union" or something, it is not a political entity like the EU on any scale.
And the more recent events, like the gulf war, iraq-iran war, war on terror and the arab spring are keeping individual states occupied, with a significant number of arab states also living in great times, like Dubai and etc. rich and swelling with oil.
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#15
RE: The Israel question.
No, they don't have sci fi technology, just the latest in US equipment (with some of their own homegrown stuff thrown in for good measure. More than enough to annihilate any Arab country. That "tiny jew nation" could leave a hole in the earth everywhere around them if they so chose. The whole region will become a non issue when petroleum goes the way of whale oil.



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#16
RE: The Israel question.
(December 27, 2011 at 4:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, they don't have sci fi technology, just the latest in US equipment (with some of their own homegrown stuff thrown in for good measure. More than enough to annihilate any Arab country. That "tiny jew nation" could leave a whole in the earth everywhere around them if they so chose. The whole region will become a non issue when petroleum goes the way of whale oil.

More than enough to destroy 300 million arabs+their allies?

I don't think so. Israel can't even win a war against a Saudi Arabia alone.
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#17
RE: The Israel question.
You're forgetting that the Saudis also buy their equipment from us. What was that about "only by support of the west"? Speaking of, where does Turkey get it's weapons......Smile

Occupation and annihilation are entirely different proposals. Hilariously annihilation is the easier of the two, and well within the capabilities of Israel. Israel is listed as a country that has likely developed and manufactured nuclear weapons. Saudi Arabia is not. In fact none of the Arab nations with an anti-Israeli axe to grind show up on the list.

(We [The US] did hand Turkey a few, would you like to bomb anyone?...you get a one shot attempt if Israel would be a target, as the very moment you run out of these weapons they'll just keep manufacturing them.)



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#18
RE: The Israel question.
Mehmet, Israel in its infancy fought off; Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Transjordan and many others, and then pinched more land. They now have nuclear weapons and probably the most battle hardened, battle ready well trained soldiers in the world, with top notch equipment.

They would destroy any Arab nation if they wanted.

And Rhythms post said ANY Arab nation, not all Arab nations.
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#19
RE: The Israel question.
(December 27, 2011 at 5:07 pm)5thHorseman Wrote: Mehmet, Israel in its infancy fought off; Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Transjordan and many others, and then pinched more land. They now have nuclear weapons and probably the most battle hardened, battle ready well trained soldiers in the world, with top notch equipment.

They would destroy any Arab nation if they wanted.

And Rhythms post said ANY Arab nation, not all Arab nations.

Yeah, they did. However, those nations too, were not exactly in their brightest moments at those times, plus, they didn't exactly give their best.
It only lasted 6 days long? Besides, the main fighting force only constituted Syria, Egypt and Jordan, with Syria having such a poor leadership, that they even let a jewish spy flourish amongst their ranks, Jordan being flooded by refugees, and Egypt...Being the Eygpt run by anyone else but foreigners.
And they already destroyed one *nation* although all arabs are the same nation to me..
Besides, they already have been humbled in lebanon by a bunch of Hezbollah guys...The fact that they have a "top notch" degree equipment, and are ever combat ready, does not mean they are invulnerable to a bullet from a much cheaper AK47. And let's see them use nukes on Lebanon. It'd be quite a spectacle to see the event that sparks WWIII.
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#20
RE: The Israel question.
With the current situation regarding the powers that be in Israel, any attack, or pretense of attack, would likely only last as long as it took a missile to deliver a payload. They're not a tiny jew nation, they're a massive threat to the region, especially in combination with Arab antagonism. When people think of nuclear weapons they often think of Hiroshima and Nagasaki......that was proof of concept, the warheads available now are capable of greater destruction by orders of magnitude. The entire situation is immensely disturbing. Any attempt to make Israel seem smaller or weaker is likely just puffing up a chest. There's nothing in the region that compares to them, and that's an issue that has to be handled eventually (hopefully by way of a peaceful process).

A 6 day war is not an indicator of weakness. It's a show of strength.

No one "let's" spies do anything, again, indicator of strength.

Their willingness to absorb attacks by Hezbollah without resorting to nuking the region is a small glimmer of hope. That being said, there is no resistance to offer a guerrilla war if annihilation becomes policy.

Honestly, there will be no WW3, only WW4 in it's ashes, fought with sticks and stones.

(AKs, despite popular opinion, are worthless btw, and I'm living proof of why. Small arms and soldiers are relegated to tools of occupation on the modern battlefield, sadly.)




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