Is long-term solitary confinement torture?

[reverendjeremiah]

Right, as opposed to our "Honk if you love serial killers" Rev.

Serial killers? Why must everything on topics like this have to land on "serial killers" with you?
---

To top it off, you just want to outright KILL the serial killers and not study shit.

I would put them in a mental institute and study what makes them serial killers.

Which option from the above choices may increase the chances of preventing other serial killers from starting? Whic option above has done jack shit in preventing serial killers from starting?

[Epimethean]

Generalize much, Rev? Let's define "topics like this," shall we? Do you mean any topic dealing with crime and punishment? If so, you are wrong. Do you mean any topic dealing with violent incarcerated offenders? Bingo. Do you mean white collar criminals or minor drug offenders? I don't think they should be locked up at all. How 'bout you? If we're talking about sending people off to some hellhole in the middle of nowhere, I am going to presume we are talking about the violent and repeat offenders.

Obviously, you haven't read all of my comments on the topic Rev, as I have very much advocated for their being used for all sorts of medical studies. Studying what makes them serial killers? Cool. Do it while they're spending the 10 year average on death row.

You decided to rib me, so have some of your own medicine. You seem to want to paint a picture of yourself as more evolved because you sanction the cult of good karma for rapists and murderers. I don't, nor do I see your nose in the air at differing viewpoints to be much of a compelling reason to bow to your viewpoint. You keep yours, and I'll keep mine.

[reverendjeremiah]

In the societal structure I wish to have, white collar crime would not exist, as there would be no corporate structures for them to take advantage of

Drug criminals would not exist because drugs would be legalised and allowed to be publicly used.

Hellholes would also not exist in the structure I support. Jails would not exist.

Death row also would not exist.

People like Jeffry Dahmer would also not exist in an anarcho syndicate, as homosexuality would be openly allowed, ages on sex would be lower (unlike how they are in America where at any given spot sex is legal anywhere from puberty to 18 - they cant make up their minds), peoples careers and life would not be ruined if it ever became social knowledge - so why would a Dahmer in an anarcho society kill and hide his lovers in that situation. Right off the bat, by changing society, we have removed certain classes of serial killers: Those who kill to hide their sexual preference from a society that would condemn them harshly for it.

Also, you say you would do all sorts of experiments on them...pray tell for clarifications on what you mean?

Not once have I painted a picture of myself being more evolved. I do not sanction cults or karma, nor in any sense do i ask you to bow to my opinions...Im a fucking anarchist..otherwise known as an anti-authoritarian. Why would I want you to bow to anything of mine?

[Epimethean]

While we agree in some spots there, I can't get on board with your contention that removing sexual repression would have kept Dahmer or any number of serial killers from being $.90 short of a human buck. Does that mean that you also believe that it was strictly bullying that led to the Columbine massacre? Lots of different theories abound, and I am a strong advocate of progressive social change-but when it comes to violent serial offenders, be they rapists or murderers, my sentimentality simply vanishes, and that is pragmatic as much as vengeful.

So. Lay off the unnecessary "WTF, oh, it's epimethean" bullshit if you want to be anti-authoritarian. Let's make a wager that it would take longer to figure out why a serial rapist rapes repeatedly and cannot be "fixed," and why a serial killer murders repeatedly without hope of being fixed than he is likely to live in solitary. Solitary is necessary for such violent creatures, and I am not sorry to say that I do not think they deserve better. Really, I think I was going above and beyond your current level of estimation in agreeing that a "prisonland" might work. That doesn't mean I want those fuckers in my backyard, and I don't think you'll find many who would say, "sure, put 'em right there in the North 40-" unless it's somebody else's North 40. Why do you think the English sent them to fucking Australia instead of putting them on the Shetlands, Orkneys or Arans?

[houseofcantor]

Me and the Rev are a pair of anarchists, so I can see the deck he's dealing outta...

I see how it could work; but I've been stuck in big-picture mode, where getting there from here... it's a rocky road.

So I think of other stuff. Like Outland. ADC-Orbital 1 beta. Get to work, you criminals! Build us some low-orbital superstructure.

Shooting people in the head has the personal advantage of knowing some people need a killing; but that is a moral imperative, and how would the society construct an ethical standard from such? It doesn't seem possible. Even if somebody was just wrong to me, odds are they're alright to somebody else. This is where I agree with Rev.

And I have known some fucks that are just evil fucks. When I considered technocratic anarchy, it was a simulation where I just moved shit around. People ain't gonna go for that kinda thing, but that seems to be the solution to all the problems; that people fit into a social dynamic, but there doesn't seem to be any other workable criteria other than morality. Which I got from vector atheism and the simulation of zero-state being "gamed" in the schoolyard...

I'm a psychopath from a dysfunctional childhood working on a plausible scenario for utopia for all mankind... yeah, there may be some problems with that algebra.

[Epimethean]

Alien 3 works for me, hoc.

[reverendjeremiah]

When you have a society that glorifies harsh competition, harsh punishments, invading other countries, picking on those who are not the same of others, and are generally dismissive of people who have issues with this..I can guarentee that you will get some "columbine" kids from the mix.

THAT was avoidable.

Jeffrey Dahmer now, I admit that i may be pushing it, but I also feel that those types of crimes would vanish with social change as well.

Rape is all about asserting authority over others. A chance to feel superior. In a society where authority is scoffed, and people are not held down or made to feel inferior...what are the chances of rape being prevalent in such a society? A society where men and women are equal, not just on paper, but in the mind where it belongs? Where people are taught to respect other people, not because some authority figure told them to do so, not because of some horrible punishment, but because we SHOULD respect the boundaries of peoples lives. Sure, it could still happen, but I argue that it would be lessened.

WTF? Oh, Epimethian, when will you stop holding your buttons out to be so easily pushed? I find such things humorus. I merely said that in passing of your reference to somolia. You, on the other hand, came right back by creating a new "honk if you love serial killers" bumper sticker for me...which I found even more funny. If you dont balance that chip on your shoulder any better, then a mere whisper of "no nukes" may cause it to come tumbling down and crash on your pinky toe and ruin your day..LOL. Besides, I was hoping that yu would come up with something better than "lay off". You ruined a perfectly good chance to introduce me to some new insults.

Oh yeah...and saying that wasnt authoritarian.

Authoritarian is exercising complete or almost complete control over the will of another or of others.

[Epimethean]

Ah, Rev, Rev, always trying to be the lofty being. Of course you was jes' playin', and trust me, what made it worth my time is pointing out how you do things out of malice too, even if you find it innocent.

Yes, you are stretching things massively and unless you are a collective set of experienced forensic psychologists, homicide detectives, and neurologists, I think it is as easy to dismiss your contention that people like Dahmer would have no reason to kill in such a utopia. Shall I call you Pangloss? Your hypothetical society is dreamstuff. Rape would not disappear because men and women lived on equal footing. LOL! When people are taught to respect people? On whose terms? Who plays the philosopher king there, my absurdist fellow? Wasn't Communism supposed to usher in such a marvelous reality? And your contention that rape is exclusively about asserting authority over others has its share of doubters. It is that and more, and it doesn't just exit the gene pool because little Johnny was raised with manners. Oh, right: You have information no one else has discovered, and all will make sense once society has the common sense to ask you. Enjoy your pipe-dream, because that is what it is, something to dream about when stoned.

Oh yeah: Absurdism is defined as: of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority.

You seem to be claiming your own sort of authority, deciding when it is right to be an asshat and when it is not, when it is right to stand up and say, "fuck off" and when it ruins "a perfectly good chance" to be introduced to some "new insults." You're as judgmental as the next sod. You may as well stop pretending otherwise. If I were to come around to your silly point of view, you would be pleased, and I am sure you would play the benevolent dictator there.

To put us back on the map, solitary confinement is one answer to an unfortunate question, as is capital punishment. Suggesting that we can be sweethearts and create a happy prisonland where all will be well essentially signs the death warrants of many more inmates such as the child rapists and serial killers, who would be first to go (and rightly so in a sane setting) at the hands of the new custodes custodum.

[reverendjeremiah]

Yes, you are stretching things massively and unless you are a collective set of experienced forensic psychologists, homicide detectives, and neurologists, I think it is as easy to dismiss your contention that people like Dahmer would have no reason to kill in such a utopia.

Are you? Are you any of the above listed professions as well?

If not then I deduce using your own argument that what you say about the same thing is just as irrelevant, just as void, and you should be just as upset at yourself for suggesting the opposite of my outcomes without professional knowledge.

I was under the idea that we were freely discussing things. I didnt know I had to produce certificates to discuss these things. If so then I cannot produce any. Now let me see your credentials for supporting the death penalty and life imprisonment. I clearly want to see "Criminal psychologist" or something very official looking, since that is what you place your faith in.

Shall I call you Pangloss?

nope. Im actually a pessimist.

Your hypothetical society is dreamstuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ana...ommunities
That was my way of pinching you to let you know that it isnt a dream. I was specifically talking about Christiania in many of my last posts. Last I checked, it wasnt a dream land, and still going strong after 40 years.

Rape would not disappear because men and women lived on equal footing. LOL! When people are taught to respect people? On whose terms? Who plays the philosopher king there, my absurdist fellow?

WTF?! Why would I say that stupid shit?!?! hmm...
*looking back at my posts*
Nope. I never said rape would disappear. Please scroll back up and read my posts again. Meh, fuck it, here it is... I said:

Sure, it (rape) could still happen, but I argue that it would be lessened.

I think I was being very reasonable. But if you think that "lessened" is the same as "disappear", then apparently we do not agree on terminology. Im not playing some kind of philosopher king here. I have made my opinionated points. Either take them for what they are worth or pishaw them.

Wasn't Communism supposed to usher in such a marvelous reality?

Thats what Marx said, or something like that. Me, personally, I dispise authoritarian communism, and I openly oppose soviet style governments. I lean a bit on anarcho-communism, but I am open to allowing a certain amount of capitalism, barter, etc. So I cant say that I am completely communist, and DEFINITELY not the type of communist you might be suggesting.

And your contention that rape is exclusively about asserting authority over others has its share of doubters. It is that and more, and it doesn't just exit the gene pool because little Johnny was raised with manners

Really? Can I see your credentials? I want to see a certificate that says "Rape therapist" or "rape professional" before I even consider anything on the topic, including your rejection of my opinion.

Besides, I never said the word "exclusive". I merely pointed out the biggest and main reasons why most of the rapes happen according to wikipedia. I've also heard that evolutionary pressure may have a play with it as well.

Oh, right: You have information no one else has discovered, and all will make sense once society has the common sense to ask you. Enjoy your pipe-dream, because that is what it is, something to dream about when stoned

Look at the lyrics for john Lennons "Imagine". You may call me a dreamer, but Im not the only one.

Oh yeah, I dont smoke dope very much. Sure, I take a puff here or there, but Im lucky if I can finish a dime bag in a month. For those who do not know, a dime bag is about 2 decent sized joints.

Oh yeah: Absurdism is defined as: of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority.

Is this sort of like "lessened" equating to "disappear?

You REALLY have a problem with my absurdism dont you?

You seem to be claiming your own sort of authority,

I am? By saying that the state, be shut down and that people should live autonimously of their own means forming natural order amongst their neighbors I am claiming authority? I even advocate the shutting down of the jail system, yet even then you find a way to make me seem authoritarian.
*shrugs*
Some people just cant get it I suppose.

deciding when it is right to be an asshat and when it is not,

Wait..who decided it was not...and what gives that asshats opinion more weight than mine?

when it is right to stand up and say, "fuck off" and when it ruins "a perfectly good chance" to be introduced to some "new insults."

..and even then you still didnt introduce me to more new insults. not even a "scum lapping shit bag" or "Communist pinko hitler worshipper donkey raping shit eater.". You had yet another chance to make me laugh, yet you dropped the ball.

You're as judgmental as the next sod.

Really? And here I was thinking that everyone else was just an idiot by birth. You mean to tell me these conclusions I have formed are merely opinions instead of facts?

You may as well stop pretending otherwise. If I were to come around to your silly point of view, you would be pleased, and I am sure you would play the benevolent dictator there.

That isnt how Anarchism works. Anarcho-socialism has no state, no leaders, and absolutely no dictators.

Anarchy means "Without rulers". Its a very simple definition. Explain to me how a dictator can exist in a society without rulers?

To put us back on the map, solitary confinement is one answer to an unfortunate question, as is capital punishment. Suggesting that we can be sweethearts and create a happy prisonland where all will be well essentially signs the death warrants of many more inmates such as the child rapists and serial killers, who would be first to go (and rightly so in a sane setting) at the hands of the new custodes custodum.

Im sorry, but I need to see your credentials before you are allowed to post a sentence like that. You cant poo poo my posts, demand certifications, and then turn around and do the same thing without credentials.

Lets see em bub'

[Epimethean]

Regarding sex offenders and serial killers in prison:

The criminal history of the victim is another factor that may lead to victimization.
Those who are at a particularly high risk of sexual assault are those who are incarcerated
for sex crimes (Human Rights Watch, 2006). In most cases though, the victim has a less
severe crime than his offender. In some instances, their crime may have been the cause
of their victimization as this type of crime is grounds for punishment by other inmates
(Fagan et al., 1996).

http://etd.ohiolink.edu/send-pdf.cgi/Swa...1216337359

"Of all the inmates in correctional institutions, the sex offender probably was and still is the object of the greatest animosity and anathema from members of society."

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-previ...ze=largest


http://www.insideprison.com/snapshot-ser...prison.asp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engla...248052.stm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,216342,00.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90004#.Tv28SDUS1sU

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/convicte...ison-riot/

http://explore.data.gov/Law-Enforcement-.../f3uy-v3nt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Se..._in_prison

There is a reason sex offenders and serial killers are housed separately in most prisons, and it has everything to do with their safety. There is a stigma attached to these beings and there are many prisoners who would kill them in vigilante style if they were not isolated.

A question for you, Rev: How would you preserve the safety of such beings in a prisonland setting?