Hello atheistforum

[brotherlylove]

Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy - nice.

Hi Michelle. Is everyone who claims to be a Rocket Scientist a Rocket Scientist? If not, why do you think everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian?

The burden of proof is not on us, it's on the person claiming the fact to prove it. Do you have proof god exists? (other than "I feel it, so I know he does" That's not proof)

The burden is on whomever is making a truth claim, and Rhythm made several of them.

That doesn't account for original sin. How is it fair or just that we are sinners before we've even taken our first breath? I don't know about you, but I had no say on whether I was born or not. Assuming what you say is true and god does exist, why wasn't I given the option of participating in his fucked up experiment of whether I end up believing or not?

How do you know He didn't ask you? Even if He didn't, does God not have the right to adjudicate His Creation as He pleases? If not, what gives man the right to do what he does on planet Earth (or anywhere)?

Once death entered into the world, it became a fact of life for all of us. Just like how the generations prior to ours have screwed up a lot of things on Earth. However, in regards to fairness, God is still able to offer you the same opportunity he offered to Adam and Eve. He isn't limited by our sins.

[Faith No More]

You mentioned that you sought out God..how did you seek Him?

Oh you know, the usual introspective examination coupled with careful observations of the events and objects surrounding me.

When I was saved, I was able to clearly see that in my life, all throughout my life, God had always been there, helping me, protecting me, teaching me, and leading me, even though I didn't believe in Him. I just didn't see it at the time. Do you think it is possible that God was helping you overcome these things even though you don't see it at the moment?

No, because it wasn't as if I was suddenly cured or delievered from my problems. I had to examine my life and figure out what I was doing wrong and what I should do to correct it. The improvements in my life were the culmination of hard work and a determination to understand what changes needed to occur. Coincidentally, these improvements came shortly after I decided the search for god revealed he did not exist.

[Michelle_Patton]

Hi Michelle. Is everyone who claims to be a Rocket Scientist a Rocket Scientist? If not, why do you think everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian?

Apologies, that was quite rude of me - Hi BL, welcome to the forum
As to this statement, claiming to be a rocket science isn't the same thing at all. You need qualifications to be one so it's easy to prove or disprove that someone is a rocket scientist, whereas anyone can be a christian if they decide that Jesus existed, the bible is the word of god and that we're all unworthy sinners. Who are you to say they're not 'real' christians simply because they don't act the way you think they should?

The burden is on whomever is making a truth claim, and Rhythm made several of them.

*Bolding mine*

Correct. So where is your proof that god exists?

How do you know He didn't ask you? Even if He didn't, does God not have the right to adjudicate His Creation as He pleases? If not, what gives man the right to do what he does on planet Earth (or anywhere)?

Once death entered into the world, it became a fact of life for all of us. Just like how the generations prior to ours have screwed up a lot of things on Earth. However, in regards to fairness, God is still able to offer you the same opportunity he offered to Adam and Eve. He isn't limited by our sins.

I'm almost positive I wasn't asked. Aside from the fact I don't believe there is a god to do the asking, for this sake of this argument, let's say he does. If the terms had been properly explained to me as to what the experiment was all about, I'm fairly sure I would have told him to piss off! How is it fair to be burned for all eternity for not believing when he's made it damn near impossible for any rational, logical person to believe?
This guy explains it better than I just have:




The bible is full of contradictions, and prayers aren't answered regardless of what you believe - I had a drug and alcohol problem and when I was a believer, and I prayed so hard for god to help me overcome my desires. You know what happened? Fuck all. I finally managed to get those things under control when I did it for myself!

I'm glad for you that you've found something that gives you peace, but I find it highly offensive to be told that I'll be tortured for all eternity for being a human - especially when the time I am human amounts to less than the blink of an eye in the big scheme of things.

[brotherlylove]

Apologies, that was quite rude of me - Hi BL, welcome to the forum
As to this statement, claiming to be a rocket science isn't the same thing at all. You need qualifications to be one so it's easy to prove or disprove that someone is a rocket scientist, whereas anyone can be a christian if they decide that Jesus existed, the bible is the word of god and that we're all unworthy sinners. Who are you to say they're not 'real' christians simply because they don't act the way you think they should?

No problem. It is the same in that there are minimum qualifications to being a Christian, namely that you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.

Not everyone who calls themselves Christian believes that Jesus was raised from the dead. There are very many casual Christians out there, who are in the church for social reasons. Also, not everyone who says Jesus is Lord is confessing that He is Lord. Jesus said this:

Matthew 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There is a difference between saying it and living it. The difference is whether someone is born again. It's plainly obvious to a Christian who is born again and who isn't, but not so much to an unbeliever.

You and I probably couldn't tell the difference between a specialist in Jet Propulsion and an advanced engineer in another specialty, and it's the same way with nonbelievers trying to tell Christians apart. They can't so they claim that anyone who says they are a Christian, is. The bible disagrees as I demonstrated above.

*Bolding mine*

Correct. So where is your proof that god exists?

My proof is the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. I have several logical arguments that I could present but they won't prove to you that God exists. The bible says this is not an evidence issue but a heart issue with the unbeliever. That He has given sufficient evidence to everyone, but those who deny He exists are suppressing the truth due to unrighteousness. That it seems like a logical problem on the surface, but underneath it is a rejection of Gods authority because of sin.

I'm almost positive I wasn't asked. Aside from the fact I don't believe there is a god to do the asking, for this sake of this argument, let's say he does. If the terms had been properly explained to me as to what the experiment was all about, I'm fairly sure I would have told him to piss off! How is it fair to be burned for all eternity for not believing when he's made it damn near impossible for any rational, logical person to believe?
This guy explains it better than I just have:

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

This is saying that, man, with all of his cumulaitive knowledge and wisdom, has come to know absolutely nothing of God. God, in His wisdom, chose to reveal Himself through something the world would believe is foolish. Why?

1 Corinthians 1:25

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

God is saying this to the world:

1 Corinthians 1:20

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

He is saying that the thoughts of men are futile. The bible also says this clearly, that all truth is spiritually discerned, and without the Holy Spirit you will never understand any of it:

1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I personally know this to be true, because I used to believe it was foolishness too. It was not until I received the Holy Spirit that I could understand what any of it was about, or how any of it could possibly make any sense.

I've actually seen that video before. I would say the flaw in your reasoning is the same flaw in his reasoning; you don't go to hell because of unbelief, you go to hell because of sin. There wasn't one mention of sin in that video, and the way he portrayed himself was as someone who hadn't really done anything wrong. Yet, he is a sinner, and has transgressed Gods laws. He doesn't seem to think that is a big deal. I would say this, and his obvious pride, is a big part of the problem.

The bible is full of contradictions, and prayers aren't answered regardless of what you believe - I had a drug and alcohol problem and when I was a believer, and I prayed so hard for god to help me overcome my desires. You know what happened? Fuck all. I finally managed to get those things under control when I did it for myself!

The contradictions are apparent, but not actual. It seems simple on the surface but it is actually very complex, and without spiritual discernment, you won't be able to understand it.

What were the circumstances of your conversion?

I'm glad for you that you've found something that gives you peace, but I find it highly offensive to be told that I'll be tortured for all eternity for being a human - especially when the time I am human amounts to less than the blink of an eye in the big scheme of things.

I'm not trying to offend you, I am warning you. If you believed it to be true, which would be more offensive..warning someone about it or keeping it to yourself?

[KichigaiNeko]

Oh goodie *sarcasm

Another chew toy...yay

Hi BL

[brotherlylove]

Oh you know, the usual introspective examination coupled with careful observations of the events and objects surrounding me.

Do you have any specific examples so I could relate to what you're talking about? Did you ever try what the bible said to do?

No, because it wasn't as if I was suddenly cured or delievered from my problems. I had to examine my life and figure out what I was doing wrong and what I should do to correct it. The improvements in my life were the culmination of hard work and a determination to understand what changes needed to occur. Coincidentally, these improvements came shortly after I decided the search for god revealed he did not exist.

Well, it wouldn't necessarily be a sudden cure, or complete delieverance. It could be years of good timing, clues, meeting the right people, finding the right information. Can you see a pattern to it?

For me personally, there were things I needed to overcome and understand before I could get anywhere near the point where I could accept God. It took years of research, careful study and self-improvement until I was ready to accept God into my heart. Looking back, I can see His hand in it every step of the way.

[Zen Badger]

Under your theology hitler could easily get into heaven.
Ps hi.

Hello there. Yes, anyone could potentially get to Heaven, because God shows no partiality between persons. It isn't about how bad a person you have been, because Jesus paid the price for all sins. It is about forgiveness and redemption.

So your god doesn't care what you've done, just that you worship him.
Rather unpleasant deity you have there laddie.

[brotherlylove]

Oh goodie *sarcasm

Another chew toy...yay

Hi BL

Here is a chew toy for you:



As for me, no biting please.

---

Under your theology hitler could easily get into heaven.
Ps hi.

Hello there. Yes, anyone could potentially get to Heaven, because God shows no partiality between persons. It isn't about how bad a person you have been, because Jesus paid the price for all sins. It is about forgiveness and redemption.

So your god doesn't care what you've done, just that you worship him.
Rather unpleasant deity you have there laddie.

He cares what you've done, and that is why He wants us to repent from those things and turn away from sin. It isn't just matter of loving God, it is a matter of redemption and sanctification.

[Phil]

I answered an alter call

That would be altar call, genius.

So...you think you have an invisible friend? Isn't that special.

Nah Min, alter is correct since he is apparently in an altered state of consciousness at the present. He claims it was Jesus but the truth is that it was some heavy and highly illegal drugs.

[frankiej]

Welcome.

I have no interest in debating religion with you. So as much as I think that your religion is horse shit, I shall not waste my time.

However, if you want to talk about anything science related then bring it on, amigo.

Enjoy your stay.