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Secularization and the destruction of marriage
#1
Secularization and the destruction of marriage
Secularization and the destruction of marriage: Is god the only solution?

For decades rising divorce rates have been blamed on secularization. On people’s falling away from god. Stated in this manner the only logical solution to the problem would be to restore one’s faith and obedience to god. I disagree with this argument; I think there are better solutions. I’d like to take my shotgun out and poke multiple holes in this argument. Care to join me? I will start with a few.

1) On the surface the value of religion in discouraging divorce is to force married couples to stay together thus forcing them to work things out – to learn to live with one another. The principle of not running from conflict (dedicating oneself to stick it out and work things out) is a good thing. A long term effect is learning how to live with people. It can effect both parties in a positive manner. My question is, do we need religion to make people do this? Is there a better way to encourage (by choice) the principle? Why is this not considered?

2) The religious solution actually puts most of the burden on the females. In modern Christianity this has lessened a bit, but let’s look at the principle as it has played out over time. Sexist double standards as stated in many religious texts give males a lot more freedom. Essentially they are saying that to discourage divorce, inequality of the sexes is necessary. One must subjugate the other in order for marriage to stay together. How is this the solution? Why can’t they think of better solutions?

3) Property rights, (up until recently in some religions women and children were property. Other religions they still are property) as stated in many religions, make the female give up her children if she is to divorce. For the woman this sometimes means never seeing her own children ever again if she were to leave her husband. This is essentially a piece of paper (doctrine on paper) that gives serious consequences to any woman who wishes to divorce. Why do humans (again most notably the females) need strong coercion by religious doctrine to stay together? Why can’t marital disputes be worked out via reason?

4) I think It’s fair to say that secularization has led to technology that has freed people from much of the drudgery of manual labor, most notably in this case in the home. Labor divisions of one person working in the home (which almost always meant the woman stays at home to do this) and the other working outside the home are no longer necessary to survive. Now a days if a woman wants to divorce it does not mean poverty and starvation for her. It has given her more freedom to divorce. Why must the woman (this burden almost always falls on her shoulders) give up this freedom in order for the family to stay together? Why can’t they think of better alternatives? Isn’t this a bit dumb?

In other words why do people think that religion is the only solution? Though it worked in the past it can hardly be said that it worked well. Why is the return to religious principles the only solution (note I don’t personally believe this) to a rising divorce rate?

And finally; If people realize that there could be other solutions, could this mean that we will hear a large popping sound as their heads come out of their asses?



Disclaimer:
One Point to consider: I am aware of statistics that show a very large divorce rate among Christians. I don’t know how much these statistics show causal links between obedience to god and increased divorce. There are other factors to consider. Churches attract divorcees by offering free divorce counseling and singles groups. Furthermore many churches offer drug counseling or support drug counseling centers. Since drug abuse and divorce often go together it’s reasonable to believe that these ex addicts who have joined the church for help with the addiction would also increase the divorce statistics. On the opposite side of this argument some popular doctrines preach a sort of immaturity that can lead to a lack of desire or an inability to work out marital disagreements. I don’t have time to discuss this in depth but the evidence for this is in the doctrine that is preached in these churches. This is why I’ve avoided statistics and stuck with the possible principles behind the cause and effect.


Dammit, this thread sounds more like a rant than anything else. I’m just sick of hearing that the only solution for (fill in the blank) is a return to god.
I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise

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#2
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
Quote:Secularization and the destruction of marriage: Is god the only solution?


First off, who is making such a connection....other than a blabbering preacher or two who always seem to have a lot to say about shit they know nothing about.
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#3
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
I am in a successfull marriage and niether of us are christian.

I think the main problem is people are used to getting there own way instantly in all things if suddenly you arent satisfied with your partner trade em in and get a new one.

So the problem is the capitalist mind set rather than secularism.

But is it really a problem? is it better for people to suffer all their lives in unhappy relationships than be free even if there are kids involved.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#4
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
Another that religion encourages which hurts marriage is not living together until marriage. Living with someone is a huge step even if you love them more than anything, and it takes time to work the kinks out. I think anyone considering marriage should have a trial period of living together first.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#5
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
(March 13, 2012 at 3:50 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Another that religion encourages which hurts marriage is not living together until marriage. Living with someone is a huge step even if you love them more than anything, and it takes time to work the kinks out. I think anyone considering marriage should have a trial period of living together first.

We lived together for two years before getting married, (to my mothers horror)



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#6
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
Don't know about the veracity of the claim, but the link below claims that the divorce rate in the religious is higher than in non-believers.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

If that's true, I can hardly see how more religion will help.
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#7
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
(March 13, 2012 at 3:47 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Secularization and the destruction of marriage: Is god the only solution?


First off, who is making such a connection....other than a blabbering preacher or two who always seem to have a lot to say about shit they know nothing about.

It's the blabbering preachers. Recently a FB friend of mine posted a video about some predictions that a preacher named Lester Sumerall (don't know if I spelled the name correctly) made in 1985. For him what we have today is "proof" of the consequences of our falling away from god. Therefore the only solution is to return to god. Over and over I have heard this and it's starting to piss me off.

People say they want to go back to the good ole days but they forget what the good ole days were all about.
(March 13, 2012 at 3:48 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: I am in a successfull marriage and niether of us are christian.

I think the main problem is people are used to getting there own way instantly in all things if suddenly you arent satisfied with your partner trade em in and get a new one.

So the problem is the capitalist mind set rather than secularism.

But is it really a problem? is it better for people to suffer all their lives in unhappy relationships than be free even if there are kids involved.

I should have stated the problem better which is essentially (as I see it, correct me if I'm wrong) a growing inability for people to make and maintain long term relationships.

Maybe you are on to something. Perhaps in a lot of cases the inability to make and maintain long term relationships has always been there (and perhaps was worse in the past) people only stayed together because of force or coercion.

BTW, for everyone who reads this. I actually posted my thread to get other's input to help me think out the problem (and to rant a bit as well I must admit). I started this thread with out an answer in mind (though maybe I might come across some in discussion). Thanks for your input.


(March 13, 2012 at 3:50 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Another that religion encourages which hurts marriage is not living together until marriage. Living with someone is a huge step even if you love them more than anything, and it takes time to work the kinks out. I think anyone considering marriage should have a trial period of living together first.

I have always wondered if there were any real numbers (statistics) out there that would show whether this was beneficial, harmful or neutral. Intuitively a trial run at a long term relationship sounds good but without any objective study I'm not sure.


(March 13, 2012 at 4:08 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Don't know about the veracity of the claim, but the link below claims that the divorce rate in the religious is higher than in non-believers.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

If that's true, I can hardly see how more religion will help.

As my disclaimer suggested I've heard of these statistics before and I question them. I see too many variables that could skew things. This does not mean that I'm unwilling to be convened of your point, it only means I'm skeptical. Thanks for posting the link. I promise to look at it soon. I'm hoping to find links to any studies that show how the statistics were obtained.

I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise

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#8
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
So what? Most types of successful breeding, nurturing relationships found in human society exist outside christianity, so secularization is no threat to ongoing existence of breeding and nurturing in human society, it's just a threat to christianity.

On the other hand, long term postponement of humanity's extinction can only grow out of extended and unremitting scientific and technological advancements. Scientific advancement is incompatible with any society that takes christianity seriously.

So secularization is no threat to the fundamental reason why marriage exists - humanity doesn't go extinct - but it is a threat to christianity. Christianity, on the other hand, is a threat to the fundamental reason why marriage exist, even if it uses perverted reasoning to uphold some particular form of that institution. So christianity is incompatible with marriage, if one take marriage for what its ultimate purpose really is.
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#9
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
(March 13, 2012 at 4:08 pm)Ziploc Surprise Wrote:
(March 13, 2012 at 4:08 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Don't know about the veracity of the claim, but the link below claims that the divorce rate in the religious is higher than in non-believers.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

If that's true, I can hardly see how more religion will help.

As my disclaimer suggested I've heard of these statistics before and I question them. I see too many variables that could skew things. This does not mean that I'm unwilling to be convened of your point, it only means I'm skeptical. Thanks for posting the link. I promise to look at it soon. I'm hoping to find links to any studies that show how the statistics were obtained.

It wasn't my point to make. I'm skeptical of the numbers as well, which is why I said I didn't know whether the claims were true. Just presenting them as fodder for discussion.

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#10
RE: Secularization and the destruction of marriage
(March 13, 2012 at 4:36 pm)Chuck Wrote: So what? Most types of successful breeding, nurturing relationships found in human society exist outside christianity, so secularization is no threat to ongoing existence of breeding and nurturing in human society, it's just a threat to christianity.

On the other hand, long term postponement of humanity's extinction can only grow out of extended and unremitting scientific and technological advancements. Scientific advancement is incompatible with any society that takes christianity seriously.

So secularization is no threat to the fundamental reason why marriage exists - humanity doesn't go extinct - but it is a threat to christianity. Christianity, on the other hand, is a threat to the fundamental reason why marriage exist, even if it uses perverted reasoning to uphold some particular form of that institution. So christianity is incompatible with marriage, if one take marriage for what its ultimate purpose really is.

I was really thinking about the benefits of long term relationships. From what I understand positive long term relationships are good for one's health. Futhermore the ability to make and maintain these relationships is a sign of psychological health and maturity. I used to have some citeable information on this but that was years and years ago. All I can do now without reresearching it is give anecdotal evidence. Personallyh I can't see how anyone can mature well if they don't learn how to get along with people.

As for breeding itself. You need to consider much more than just a pregnancy. That infant must survive to breeding age. In the past this required more than one parent. From what I understand in the distant past it required the efforts of the entire tribe (protection etc.). These days a child can survive to breeding age quite well on the efforts of just one parent.
I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise

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