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July 31, 2012 at 2:17 pm (This post was last modified: July 31, 2012 at 2:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That the place which would eventually become hell, or those places which would be associated with hell make appearaences in the bible is not an issue of contention. Our modern notions of hell (as different as they may be) are not entirely biblical, and have alot to do with the convergence of cultures as christianity spread out into Europe. I wrote a fairly exhaustive post about this awhile back, I'm always trying to find it so I can just link it every time this topic crops up (and that's often) but honestly, if those interested (looking at you GC and Cat) can't be bothered to search for it, if only to see whether or not it's already been discussed to death, I can't be bothered to find the post.
To make a long story short, yes, hell is in the bible, not just one hell, but many. It also comes to us from places external to the bible. Even a rudimentary googling of the subject makes this plainly clear, so, I'm guessing you didn't bother to do that before you put the OP up on the boards Cat.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
My personal opinion of religion has very little to do with what stories the religious tell Cat.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(July 30, 2012 at 4:45 pm)catfish Wrote: Don't be a dumbass. Stop trying to follow, turn yourself around, face forward and attempt to lead.
Oh, ok. I will hijack your train of thought then by saying I've read the Bible cover to cover and I can personally vouch hell was mentioned frequently as possible to inspire obedience through fear... as can these quotes:
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Theres quite a few more, these are what I could find on the web on such short notice.
So thats that. I suppose the real question here is why would you try to convince us theres no claims of hell? Well of course to make your religion sound more palatable than it actually is. Perhaps you also believe yourself to have "sinned" and wish to escape the preachings of your own belief system? Perhaps you cannot stand the thought of a creator who would happily torture his own creations forever for what he made them and simultaneously claim eternal love for them.
Honestly, it could be any number of reasons and I'm not a mind-reader.
Since you invited me to lead this "train" would you care to discuss them?
You responded to my Bible quotes that openly say Hell exists did you catfish? Hmmmm, no. No you didn't. I was going to let you off but now you've brought them up would you please explain all of them?
Thanks. :-)
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
July 31, 2012 at 5:39 pm (This post was last modified: July 31, 2012 at 5:46 pm by Godscreated.)
(July 31, 2012 at 5:06 am)catfish Wrote:
2 Timothy 4:3-5
New International Version (NIV)
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
2 Peter 2:1-4
New International Version (NIV)
2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[.b] to be held for judgment;
Footnotes:
a.2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
b.2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons
Hmmm, destructive heresies and myths? Hades seems to fit that prophecy quite nicely.
As for your eternal support...
Lamentations 3:30-32
New International Version (NIV)
30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.
31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
Brian37 Wrote:You can quote a book, wow, so by this logic if I quote Harry Potter that means little boys can fly around on brooms.
Muslims quote the Koran, but you are not a Muslim.
I am sure as as long as you have been here someone has explained what theis fallacious bad logic is called, but in case you have forgotten it is called CIRCULAR REASONING.
If you wont buy the arguments of others when they quote their books, why should we do any differently when we reject your circular reasoning?
You pet god claim is not special, your book is not special. It is a book of myth like all the rest.
You can not prove that statement.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
July 31, 2012 at 5:52 pm (This post was last modified: July 31, 2012 at 5:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Yeah, actually thats been pretty thoroughly established GC. You choose to believe otherwise, and that's fine.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(July 31, 2012 at 4:07 am)Godschild Wrote: No, I do not support the Greek myths, these are Greek words used to write the scriptures during a time when most spoke Greek. Yes I do support the word aion, it is used in Matt. 25:46 to describe punishment and life, same word for both. So both punishment and life are eternal or I've wasted my time. Also look up 2nd Thess. 1:9-10. Aion includes all of time, past, present and future.
cf Wrote:2 Timothy 4:3-5
New International Version (NIV)
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
Paul is telling Timothy that he will encounter those who will seek false doctrine to fit their life style. He is also telling him that they will find teachers who will cater to them, not to be discourage because some will leave the faith.
You need to learn what scriptures are saying.
cf Wrote:2 Peter 2:1-4
New International Version (NIV)
2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[.b] to be held for judgment;
Footnotes:
a.2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
b.2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons
Hmmm, destructive heresies and myths? Hades seems to fit that prophecy quite nicely.
The word Hades is the Greek word for hell and nothing more. Peter never intended to put Greek myths into scriptures.
cf Wrote:As for your eternal support...
Lamentations 3:30-32
New International Version (NIV)
30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.
31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
Why are you using a book and verses that are about the sorrows of exile, this has nothing to do with hell, it is a statement about earthly punishment not eternal. You sir are a cherry picker of the most desperately unknowledged.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(July 31, 2012 at 5:52 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Yeah, actually thats been pretty thoroughly established GC. You choose to believe otherwise, and that's fine.
Claiming that there's evidence isn't the same as providing evidence. But I guess atheists here aren't really interested in providing evidence for their claims...
“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”
I'm sorry, I thought everyone realized that the bible was book, complete with-
A cover -like all the rest
a binder- like all the rest
pages -like all the rest
text- like all the rest.
You required evidence for this? Do you own a fucking bible?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(July 31, 2012 at 6:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm sorry, I thought everyone realized that the bible was book, complete with-
A cover -like all the rest
a binder- like all the rest
pages -like all the rest
text- like all the rest.
You required evidence for this? Do you own a fucking bible?
So the fact that the Bible is a book establishes that the Bible is myth? Every book is fiction?
“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”
