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Moon Reaper
#1
Moon Reaper
Well, another snake oil salesman has bit the dust, and after all that pontification and selling of utopias his sky daddy didn't seem to care to have his best salesman stick around. Funny that with religion, in all of human history. The founders die like the laymen and stay dead just like the laymen. Tut was loved and famous and most Egyptian pharaohs were, but all of them died. Jerry Falwell died. Joseph Smith died. Stalin died, as too every pope.

How about this humanity? How about STOP FUCKING WORSHIPING ANYTHING, be it politics or religion. We all die so your title to me is about as amazing as taking a dump. Moon died, not because he was special, he died because he was a human, just like the rest of our evolutionary history. He will be no more remembered after the sun expands and fries the planet than I will be remembered.

When humans in mass begin to realize that there is no magic pill, only our common condition, then and only then can we maximize benefit and minimize harm.

Moon was no one's hero other than the credulous who bought his bullshit utopia. There are only humans, there is no magic pill or magic man. Life is messy enough and complicated enough without superstition fucking our heads to the point of war and division. Moon WAS a cult leader, as with all upstart "religions" in our history. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the political power the numbers have over politics, and that includes politics being a religion itself.
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#2
RE: Moon Reaper
The flesh dies, but names and ideas remain, friend. Superstition or not, cult or not. If the ideas cannot survive without the person that has developed them, then there is someting seriously wrong with those ideas. Either they're only applicable to same-minded individuals so that they cannot reach enough people to survive and thrive, or they are not even applicable to the person that has produced them, and he only held them alive during his lifetime through pure personal charisma or by means of fear and expulsion.

For example this guy is quite similar to the recently deceased Moon. Just as Moon, he has written a number of books, which supposedly explain the Qur'an, but have weird references to angels allowing for radio signals to transmit from one place to another, or have messages that goes well beyond than just explaining the Qur'an, going deep into political issues of the time.
His ramblings are today preached as the one true explanation of the Qur'an by his believers, called "Nurcu", although when you bring them to account on the general ignorance and stupidity that is found in his books, called "risale", they come to you with explanations such as that we obviously did not read them right, or that they have such deep meanings and hidden messages that we cannot fully understand them..
Well, it's funny actually, that they were written to explain the deep meanings and hidden messages of the Qur'an, but contain even deeper meanings and hidden messages. That actually defeats the purpose of explaining something, but the ignorant believers of this man still go on, although he has not archived the status of Moon, he is close to being a second Joseph Smith, I'd say, but unlike him, this guy was put into a mental hospital by our gracious Sultan Abdulhamid the second, may he rest in peace, and is a clinic lunatic. He's presented as a "scholar" to people, although his knowledge of arabic and persian, along with the old Ottoman Turkish and script were quite base and unsophisticated.

Moon on the other hand seems to be a quite successful and clever man. However I'm quite sure that his ramblings will continue to persist just as Said's ramblings persist today, as ignorant people do not really want to read the Bible or Qur'an themselves to understand the message within, they simply want to hear someone else tell them what to do.
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#3
RE: Moon Reaper
I agree. But if you had known me when my friend, a fellow atheist Bob, from Australia first postulated Dawkin's "Meme theory", I called him nuts at the time, and would so you if you had made the same factual statements that "ideas spread" back then.

I am aware that we most certainly survive in the memories of those who survive us. But that will never change our species finite existence. The best we can do as a species is to try and extend the ride. If we are being selfish, and most are, it is generational, and far to often politics and religion falsely lay claim to immortality even for future generations, and the effort of such futility was recognized, even before I was born in MacBeth act 5 scene 5.

And even before that our species has denoted the finality of life. Our problem has always been the struggle for food, and resources, while making politics and boarders the issue when the reality is that our common condition should be.

Magic in words and ideology are nothing but the products of humans who don't want to accept our finite existence. Our ride wont happen forever, but we are at this point, still childish collectively in our ignorance of our common condition. The sooner we get past the labels, the longer we can make our finite ride last.
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#4
RE: Moon Reaper
Quote:But that will never change our species finite existence.
If you look at things that way, nothing really makes a difference anymore. There is no need to move forward, as moving forward only drives us further to the "inevitable end" that you put before us. I personally would not think of such an inevitable end, as I believe that there is nothing inevitable for someone or a multitude of people who have the will to go through a calamity. Accepting defeat before fighting a war is not what an army is for.

Quote:If we are being selfish, and most are, it is generational, and far to often politics and religion falsely lay claim to immortality even for future generations, and the effort of such futility was recognized, even before I was born in MacBeth act 5 scene 5.
Well, I don't know why you're against selfishness if you already claim that our ride is finite. Since the ride is finite, let people believe in whatever ideologies or faiths that make their lives a bit more bearable, let them feel happy about themselves, and let them find solace in the concept of life after death, or let them find solace in this life with the many finite pleasures of the world, let us go wild, and leave nothing behind. After all, what purpose does it serve to think of the next generation which could theoretically be the last one, perhaps? I think that with such a life philosophy, the only thing that one could do is to be either so selfish to disregard anything in the world or so selfless to commit suicide.

Or, maybe we should just put ourselves out of our misery, and spare any future generations from experiencing the final stages of this "finite ride" that you mentioned, which is, I believe, some kind of a doomsday scenario that is to strike mankind in some near or far future.

I mean, you probably are an advocate of euthanasia, and if we equate mankind to a single human being that suffers from terminal cancer, maybe it's best not to further try to make futile repairs and life extention procedures to keep a suffering patient like mankind live any longer.


Like, what is this acceptace, that you speak of is going to bring to us?People of the current world religions too, speak of this acceptance of a "finite existence", at least in worldly terms. But I believe that their concept of an afterlife makes them more at peace with themselves, at least they have something to look forward to. What do you have but the cold void, and you do not even have the solace of leaving a legacy behind you, for that legacy means nothing in the finiteness of our existence. Do not mind me for saying that you sound to me as a lonely, troubled person, friend.
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#5
RE: Moon Reaper
Quote:If you look at things that way, nothing really makes a difference anymore. There is no need to move forward, as moving forward only drives us further to the "inevitable end" that you put before us. I personally would not think of such an inevitable end,

Did you not read a thing I typed? Who the fuck is saying "nothing matters".

Evolution could not occur without our drive to continue. I am positive if we collectively grow the fuck up, we can extend our ride. But accepting our finite existence as individuals, much less a species, is hardly pessimistic.

The opposite is the case. Religion teaches you to put up a wall and ignore the competition of ideas that do foster progress. Name me one point in history where some nation or group claims to have it right and nothing changed for the better after that, despite the future proving them wrong.

NO, we are better off as a species accepting our finite nature, as individuals and as a collective future.

There is a reason to move forward, because our lives are finite.

(September 2, 2012 at 7:18 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:
Quote:But that will never change our species finite existence.
If you look at things that way, nothing really makes a difference anymore. There is no need to move forward, as moving forward only drives us further to the "inevitable end" that you put before us. I personally would not think of such an inevitable end, as I believe that there is nothing inevitable for someone or a multitude of people who have the will to go through a calamity. Accepting defeat before fighting a war is not what an army is for.

Quote:If we are being selfish, and most are, it is generational, and far to often politics and religion falsely lay claim to immortality even for future generations, and the effort of such futility was recognized, even before I was born in MacBeth act 5 scene 5.
Well, I don't know why you're against selfishness if you already claim that our ride is finite. Since the ride is finite, let people believe in whatever ideologies or faiths that make their lives a bit more bearable, let them feel happy about themselves, and let them find solace in the concept of life after death, or let them find solace in this life with the many finite pleasures of the world, let us go wild, and leave nothing behind. After all, what purpose does it serve to think of the next generation which could theoretically be the last one, perhaps? I think that with such a life philosophy, the only thing that one could do is to be either so selfish to disregard anything in the world or so selfless to commit suicide.

Or, maybe we should just put ourselves out of our misery, and spare any future generations from experiencing the final stages of this "finite ride" that you mentioned, which is, I believe, some kind of a doomsday scenario that is to strike mankind in some near or far future.

I mean, you probably are an advocate of euthanasia, and if we equate mankind to a single human being that suffers from terminal cancer, maybe it's best not to further try to make futile repairs and life extention procedures to keep a suffering patient like mankind live any longer.


Like, what is this acceptace, that you speak of is going to bring to us?People of the current world religions too, speak of this acceptance of a "finite existence", at least in worldly terms. But I believe that their concept of an afterlife makes them more at peace with themselves, at least they have something to look forward to. What do you have but the cold void, and you do not even have the solace of leaving a legacy behind you, for that legacy means nothing in the finiteness of our existence. Do not mind me for saying that you sound to me as a lonely, troubled person, friend.
I've heard that argument countless times and I agree and disagree with it. If someone claiming to be a Mormon or Catholic or Muslim prevents them from blowing shit up or committing crime, I most certainly support their right to hold that delusion, much like I wont kill a Cowboy fan if they Beat my Redskins.

But I totally disagree that any claim on any subject religious or not, should hold a taboo status. The only right a claim has is the right to make the claim. After that only a dictator would expect opposition to not say boo. If making claims, on any subject is important, then equally important is the ability of outsiders and insiders to kick the tires. Religion and politics are the biggest childish brats to the idea of questioning.

You type on this computer because someone questioned. We no longer in the west have slavery and women can vote because of questioning. What held that back and needlessly so? RELIGION!
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#6
RE: Moon Reaper
Quote:Evolution could not occur without our drive to continue.
I don't know how you managed to tie this all up to evolution.
Quote:But accepting our finite existence as individuals, much less a species, is hardly pessimistic.
So which evolution are you talking about if you're talking of extinction?
Quote:Religion teaches you to put up a wall and ignore the competition of ideas that do foster progress.
Well, the walls that it puts before you as you claim doesn't seem to be high enough for them to deny the finiteness of this world and the human species, eh? Really friend, those who you oppose have the same outlook on life as you do.
It's just that you don't have a concept of afterlife. I believe that you're not really so different. You have your own walls, and they're probably as high as those whom you proclaim to have high walls due to their religious convictions.
Quote:Name me one point in history where some nation or group claims to have it right and nothing changed for the better after that, despite the future proving them wrong.
You're rambling, friend, I don't who claimed to have it right or wrong, but if something's wrong, it's wrong.
But by your words, something is worthless even if it's right or wrong, for in the finiteness, right or wrong doesn't matter, they all go down the same way, and lose their relevance after we go extinct according to your predictions.
Quote:NO, we are better off as a species accepting our finite nature, as individuals and as a collective future.
Well, as I said, most people in the world accept this, however, with a religious overtone. What difference is there between your words, and theirs?
Quote:There is a reason to move forward, because our lives are finite.
Well, I see truth in these words, but the underlying context which your provided me spells that my finiteness and yours are quite different from eachother.
I know that my life on this earth is finite, but I choose to outifit this finite life with a purpose, so what made my life "my life" lives on in eternity. But you take that one away from me too. You don't allow me to write my name in the book of immortals by one way or another, which really gives me no real purpose than to live out my life just to live it out, like animals. Eat, drink, sleep...

Quote:If someone claiming to be a Mormon or Catholic or Muslim prevents them from blowing shit up or committing crime,
That's not it, though.
It's not about keeping a person from committing a crime.
It's about giving those people a life that is beyond the finiteness of the flesh. I am not really certain if such a thing exists, but in the back of my mind, I wish it does. And if not, I wish that my people continue to exist throughout the many ages into infinity, and work towards that goal, so that my bloodline, through them, me, can live on.
It would be great to have an afterlife, so I could maybe watch them from somewhere above, or under, who knows? What I don't understand is what gives you a purpose that overrides all these purposes, and makes you life meaningful. You don't seem to be occupied with furthering your bloodline, keeping it safe and secure and wealthy or helping your nation archive new heights or something that could render your life a higher purpose than to just live your life.
Quote:But I totally disagree that any claim on any subject religious or not, should hold a taboo status.
Well, you call, buddy. If you don't want to make it a taboo, it ain't a taboo for you.
For me, certain things are very sacred.

Quote:You type on this computer because someone questioned. We no longer in the west have slavery and women can vote because of questioning. What held that back and needlessly so? RELIGION!
Questioning what? You speak of questioning, yet there is one thing that you cannot question by your words. Finiteness. You cannot seem to question the nature of that one.
I don't know how you came to state that religion was the reason of all the evils of the world, but I think that you still are a bit sour due to your personal experiences. Religion was born from the ability of man's ability to question, and you ought to blame the lack of questioning on religion?
Best you rethink your statements, friend.
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#7
RE: Moon Reaper
(September 2, 2012 at 9:17 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:
Quote:Evolution could not occur without our drive to continue.
I don't know how you managed to tie this all up to evolution.
Quote:But accepting our finite existence as individuals, much less a species, is hardly pessimistic.
So which evolution are you talking about if you're talking of extinction?
Quote:Religion teaches you to put up a wall and ignore the competition of ideas that do foster progress.
Well, the walls that it puts before you as you claim doesn't seem to be high enough for them to deny the finiteness of this world and the human species, eh? Really friend, those who you oppose have the same outlook on life as you do.
It's just that you don't have a concept of afterlife. I believe that you're not really so different. You have your own walls, and they're probably as high as those whom you proclaim to have high walls due to their religious convictions.
Quote:Name me one point in history where some nation or group claims to have it right and nothing changed for the better after that, despite the future proving them wrong.
You're rambling, friend, I don't who claimed to have it right or wrong, but if something's wrong, it's wrong.
But by your words, something is worthless even if it's right or wrong, for in the finiteness, right or wrong doesn't matter, they all go down the same way, and lose their relevance after we go extinct according to your predictions.
Quote:NO, we are better off as a species accepting our finite nature, as individuals and as a collective future.
Well, as I said, most people in the world accept this, however, with a religious overtone. What difference is there between your words, and theirs?
Quote:There is a reason to move forward, because our lives are finite.
Well, I see truth in these words, but the underlying context which your provided me spells that my finiteness and yours are quite different from eachother.
I know that my life on this earth is finite, but I choose to outifit this finite life with a purpose, so what made my life "my life" lives on in eternity. But you take that one away from me too. You don't allow me to write my name in the book of immortals by one way or another, which really gives me no real purpose than to live out my life just to live it out, like animals. Eat, drink, sleep...

Quote:If someone claiming to be a Mormon or Catholic or Muslim prevents them from blowing shit up or committing crime,
That's not it, though.
It's not about keeping a person from committing a crime.
It's about giving those people a life that is beyond the finiteness of the flesh. I am not really certain if such a thing exists, but in the back of my mind, I wish it does. And if not, I wish that my people continue to exist throughout the many ages into infinity, and work towards that goal, so that my bloodline, through them, me, can live on.
It would be great to have an afterlife, so I could maybe watch them from somewhere above, or under, who knows? What I don't understand is what gives you a purpose that overrides all these purposes, and makes you life meaningful. You don't seem to be occupied with furthering your bloodline, keeping it safe and secure and wealthy or helping your nation archive new heights or something that could render your life a higher purpose than to just live your life.
Quote:But I totally disagree that any claim on any subject religious or not, should hold a taboo status.
Well, you call, buddy. If you don't want to make it a taboo, it ain't a taboo for you.
For me, certain things are very sacred.

Quote:You type on this computer because someone questioned. We no longer in the west have slavery and women can vote because of questioning. What held that back and needlessly so? RELIGION!
Questioning what? You speak of questioning, yet there is one thing that you cannot question by your words. Finiteness. You cannot seem to question the nature of that one.
I don't know how you came to state that religion was the reason of all the evils of the world, but I think that you still are a bit sour due to your personal experiences. Religion was born from the ability of man's ability to question, and you ought to blame the lack of questioning on religion?
Best you rethink your statements, friend.

NO, most people in the world DO NOT accept their finite nature otherwise they would not have faith in an afterlife.

Religion was not born out of questioning. It was born from gap filling and imagination. Questioning landed our species on the moon, faith slams planes into buildings and burns witches.
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