Martin and Zimmerman - A reasoned logical discussion

[A Theist]

Yes, it shows that for some people evidence is not important. A Latino/White Guy has killed a black guy and politics means that the white/latino guy must be guilty.

That just floored me when a news source referred to Zimmerman as a White / Hispanic. WTH is a White Hispanic? Do we now refer to Barack Obama as our White African American President? There's too much of this race baiting bullshit. If Zimmerman is found guilty, absolutely he should suffer the consequences of the law. But to condemn this guy before any argument of the facts at a trial is wrong!

Checking the poll results. At least another who voted has the good sense to wait and hear the evidence argued out before assessing judgement.

[TaraJo]

No, we don't have all the evidence or facts on the case yet. We can't come to a final conclusion. We can still make an educated guess, though.

Personally, I think the truth is somewhere between the two sides. I don't think Zimmerman's shooting was racially motivated or, at best, it wasn't consciously racially motivated. I honestly think Zimmerman was just an overly eager guy doing neighborhood watch and he wanted to be a hero. He rushed in without thinking and fucked up, bad. If I had to guess at this point, I would say he's guilty of manslaughter easily but 'murder' is questionable.

[Anomalocaris]

. I am not emotionally involved in this.

Bullshit. If you weren't emotionally involved, you wouldn't have made the fucking post. At the very least, you are emotionally involved with being able to act in your own mind the great man and jerk people around under the pretext of soliciting "reasoned discussion". Most probably you are also emotionally involved with a particular interpretation of both the facts and implication of the case, and are trying to assure yourself of the validity of your view by setting up an discussion for the purpose of bashing the opposing view.

[festive1]

All the facts will *hopefully* come out at trial. However, it's morally wrong to pull a gun on someone who is punching you with fists (barring that person being a heavyweight boxer, but then one probably wouldn't be able to get up after that first punch landed).

[A Theist]

All the facts will *hopefully* come out at trial. However, it's morally wrong to pull a gun on someone who is punching you with fists (barring that person being a heavyweight boxer, but then one probably wouldn't be able to get up after that first punch landed).

I have to disagree with you here. People can easily die in a fist fight too. We had an incident some time back that involved two dads in a fist fight over a childrens' hockey game. One dad was knocked to the ground and the other got on top and pinned him down while he beat the guy's face to a bloody pulp, and in addition to grabbing his head and banging it on the asphalt pavement of the parking lot. The guy who was beaten went into a coma and died a short time later. The guy who beat him to death was charged. That incident seemed very close to the way Zimmerman claimed and described the way that Martin had beaten him. Medical reports also confirmed a consistency to Zimmerman's account. But yet, that still doesn't assess guilt or innocence to Zimmerman until the facts are argued in a court room.

[festive1]

I have to say I don't believe that Trayvon Martin would have been capable of pinning a man as large as Zimmerman down and beating him as badly as what you have described. Martin looks to be a tallish (I'm 5'2, so every one is tallish to me) and rather gangly. Zimmerman appears much larger. Not to say that a smaller person is going to lose a fight outright, but it does put the odds in Zimmerman's favor just going on his size. I still think it is unfair to bring a gun to a fist fight.

[Tiberius]

I still think it is unfair to bring a gun to a fist fight.

He didn't. He happened to have his gun on him, as he has a license to carry it. The evidence doesn't seem to suggest that he was looking for a fight...just looking to confront someone who he suspected was up to something.

I too find it ridiculous that some people have voted "guilty" without knowing all the evidence. I hope none of you ever sit on a jury.

[A Theist]

I have to say I don't believe that Trayvon Martin would have been capable of pinning a man as large as Zimmerman down and beating him as badly as what you have described. Martin looks to be a tallish (I'm 5'2, so every one is tallish to me) and rather gangly. Zimmerman appears much larger. Not to say that a smaller person is going to lose a fight outright, but it does put the odds in Zimmerman's favor just going on his size. I still think it is unfair to bring a gun to a fist fight.

I definitely have to disagree here. You can't attribute size to strength and fitness. Yes, Zimmerman is heavier. But he's also dumpy and out of shape compared to Martin who was obviously more physically fit and more than likely the stronger of the two. I've seen this too often where a gangly guy has better than average strength over someone heavier.

[festive1]

I still think it is unfair to bring a gun to a fist fight.

He didn't. He happened to have his gun on him, as he has a license to carry it. The evidence doesn't seem to suggest that he was looking for a fight...just looking to confront someone who he suspected was up to something.

I disagree with the stand your ground law. Personally, I'd like to see stricter gun control in general, but especially the ability to carry concealed weapons in particular. I'm all for people reporting suspicious activity, but not for those people confronting the suspicious person, that's for the police. In the Martin-Zimmerman case, it could very well be that Zimmerman acted within his rights per the law, but as I stated, I disagree with said law. I'm not a 2nd amendment supporter.

I definitely have to disagree here. You can't attribute size to strength and fitness. Yes, Zimmerman is heavier. But he's also dumpy and out of shape compared to Martin who was obviously more physically fit and more than likely the stronger of the two. I've seen this too often where a gangly guy has better than average strength over someone heavier.

This has legs. It would require more evidence than just the speculations that we are making to prove either side, though. As I stated originally, hopefully the trial will expose the truth, whatever that may be.

[Anomalocaris]

I hope none of you ever sit on a jury.

You don't understand how jury system works.

Trial by a fair jury is the last resort of an incompetent lawyer. Any lawyer worth half his pay would never have allowed the issue to come to a trial, or failing that, would have nullified the trial by stacking the jury with people either by temperment known to be, or have been conditioned by purposed pre-trail publicity to be, likely to vote in his favor. Lawyers are not made renowned by uncovering the truth of guilt or innocence. They are made renowed by whether they convicted or gained acquital.

BTW, I think real crux of the Zimmermann Martin case has nothing to do with racism. Racism is just a canard that enables semi-skilled laywers use to stack the jury. The real crux is are you allowed to shoot someone dead for beating you up.