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RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 2:28 pm (This post was last modified: December 5, 2012 at 2:29 pm by Darkstar.)
(December 5, 2012 at 9:04 am)John V Wrote: God, being omniscient, knows whether John B would have accepted salvation in the absence of the demon, and can dismiss the demon based on that knowledge, or just save the man in the end despite the lack of an overt confession of faith.
God, being omniscient, knows whether John B Adam and Eve would have accepted salvation in the absence of the demon devil, and can dismiss the demon based on that knowledge, or just save ruin themman in the end despite the lack of an overt confession of lack of faith.
Funny how these things work, huh? Then again, we only need salvation because god let Satan decieve the naive and impressionable minds of Adam and Eve. By the way, wouldn't it be against god's nature to let someone go to heaven without their accepting Jesus (thus making it impossible)?
RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 3:16 pm
(December 5, 2012 at 2:28 pm)Darkstar Wrote: God, being omniscient, knows whether John B Adam and Eve would have accepted salvation in the absence of the demon devil, and can dismiss the demon based on that knowledge, or just save ruin themman in the end despite the lack of an overt confession of lack of faith.
Sure. What's your point?
Quote:Funny how these things work, huh?
Yes - you argue above that Satan wasn't necessary for God's plan re: mankind, which indicates there are other purposes for Satan, going against your previous position. Quite funny.
Quote:Then again, we only need salvation because god let Satan decieve the naive and impressionable minds of Adam and Eve.
Er, how do you know that they wouldn't have eventually disobeyed God even without Satan's influence?
Quote:By the way, wouldn't it be against god's nature to let someone go to heaven without their accepting Jesus (thus making it impossible)?
The OT faithful didn't know Jesus, but I'd say they're saved, so - no.
RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 3:19 pm
(December 4, 2012 at 5:25 pm)John V Wrote: A possessed person would not be in a position to defend himself by saying "the devil made me do it," so Drich's comment is not incompatible with demon possession.
While I don't doubt that demons have influences on people, Biblically it seems that actual possession is very rare. Almost all cases occurred during Jesus' ministry, which makes sense in a couple of ways: Satan may have been challenging Jesus, or God may have allowed demons to do things generally not allowed in order for Jesus to display his power and authority to the people.
That is one fucked-up god you have concocted for yourself.
RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 3:50 pm (This post was last modified: December 5, 2012 at 4:06 pm by Darkstar.)
(December 5, 2012 at 3:16 pm)John V Wrote:
(December 5, 2012 at 2:28 pm)Darkstar Wrote: God, being omniscient, knows whether John B Adam and Eve would have accepted salvation in the absence of the demon devil, and can dismiss the demon based on that knowledge, or just save ruin themman in the end despite the lack of an overt confession of lack of faith.
Sure. What's your point?
That god doesn't give people the benefit of the doubt.
(December 5, 2012 at 3:16 pm)John V Wrote:
Darkstar Wrote:Funny how these things work, huh?
Yes - you argue above that Satan wasn't necessary for God's plan re: mankind, which indicates there are other purposes for Satan, going against your previous position. Quite funny.
Only if you assume that god wasn't okay with letting Satan lead mankind away from him. Nothing is 'necessary' to an omnipotent being. Why did he create Eve from Adam's rib? For metaphorical reasons? Should I start quoting Revelation about just what god 'lets' Satan do?
(December 5, 2012 at 3:16 pm)John V Wrote:
Darkstar Wrote:Then again, we only need salvation because god let Satan decieve the naive and impressionable minds of Adam and Eve.
Er, how do you know that they wouldn't have eventually disobeyed God even without Satan's influence?
Eventually as in infinite time?Some theists here have supposed that Adam and Eve were in the garden for millenia before the fall. It seems like they had no desire at all to eat the fruit until Satan both removed the threat of death, and added the benefit of knowledge. (Although god inflicted mortality upon them afterwards, but Satan is not imniscent, and he had tricky wordy that could be interpreted in other ways).
(December 5, 2012 at 3:16 pm)John V Wrote:
Darkstar Wrote:By the way, wouldn't it be against god's nature to let someone go to heaven without their accepting Jesus (thus making it impossible)?
The OT faithful didn't know Jesus, but I'd say they're saved, so - no.
The saints are described as being in a blissful or peaceful state, although they are essentially captive until the resurrection. That point is without dissent in the post-apostolic period.
1. Paul clearly taught that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord ( II Cor. 5:8) This can only refer to our intermediate state after death but before the resurrection, since it is specifically stated as being "absent from the body."
2. Both Biblical tradition and apostolic tradition records Jesus' descent into Hades before his own resurrection. Jesus told the thief on the cross beside him that before the sun set that day, they would be in "Paradise" ie. Abraham's Bosom. Apocryphal writings like the Gospel of Nicodemus records how Jesus appeared in Hades and triumphed over Satan, Death, and Hades, whence we get the phrase from the apostle's creed "He descended into Hell". (See also Col. 2:5). Having procured salvation for the Old Testament saints, they were free to "boldly enter the throne of grace". Christ subsequently could be said to have extricated those held in captivity in that compartment of Hades. Paul writes in the Book of Ephesians 4:8-9:
This is why it says "when he ascended on high, he led captives in his train, and gave gifts to men. What does "he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower earthly regions?
This would indicate that those who received him in Hades did indeed ascend into God's presence. This scenario of freeing the captives in "Abraham's Bosom" would also lend special meaning to Jesus' words in John 8:56, where he states that "Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day."
It looks like a sort of pseudo-heaven used to hold those who would be saved until they had the opportunity to accept Jesus. It does not mean that someone can be saved without accepting Jesus. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...jesus-came
[quote]So were there multiple ways of salvation prior to the coming of Jesus in space and time to die as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind? The answer must be a resounding “No.” Paul explained in Romans 4 that salvation has always been and will always be by God’s grace and received through faith alone.[/hide]
Both are apologetics websites, by the way.
RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 4:00 pm
(December 5, 2012 at 3:50 pm)Darkstar Wrote: That god doesn't give people the benefit of the doubt.
There is no doubt with omniscience.
Quote:Only if you assume that god wasn't okay with letting Satan lead mankind away from him. Nothing is 'necessary' to an omnipotent being. Why did he create Eve from Adam's rib? For metaphorical reasons?
Seems likely.
Quote:Should I start quoting Revelation about just what god 'lets' Satan do?
If you thought it would do any good you would have started by now.
Quote:Eventually as in infinite time?Some theists here have supposed that Adam and Eve were in the garden for millenia before the fall. It seems like they had no desire at all to eat the fruit until Satan both removed the threat of death, and added the benefit of knowledge. (Although god inflicted mortality upon them afterwards, but Satan is not imniscent, and he had tricky wordy that could be interpreted in other ways).
Some theists can suppose whatever they want. We can't tell from the Bible, and you can't know what they would have done in the absence of Satan.
RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 4:03 pm (This post was last modified: December 5, 2012 at 4:05 pm by Welsh cake.)
Why would extraterrestrial beings or beings of unknown origin or state want to hijack a human being's neural processes in the brain, just to control motor coordination commands?
Why not just fuck up things without all that possession of silly fragile unstable people who will get in the way and be unreliable? People are often useless, even when you want them to screw something up, they still manage to fail and "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory".
You have to admit Christians: This is childish nonsense.
RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 4:14 pm
Quote:It looks like a sort of pseudo-heaven used to hold those who would be saved until they had the opportunity to accept Jesus. It does not mean that someone can be saved without accepting Jesus.
If you're going past this life, then yes, all the saved will obviously accept Jesus. I don't see the relevance for purposes of this discussion.
RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 4:29 pm
(December 5, 2012 at 4:00 pm)John V Wrote:
(December 5, 2012 at 3:50 pm)Darkstar Wrote: That god doesn't give people the benefit of the doubt.
There is no doubt with omniscience.
So, either he is deliberately being a thug, or these people really are totally evil.
(December 5, 2012 at 4:00 pm)John V Wrote:
Darkstar Wrote:Only if you assume that god wasn't okay with letting Satan lead mankind away from him. Nothing is 'necessary' to an omnipotent being. Why did he create Eve from Adam's rib? For metaphorical reasons?
Seems likely.
It seems odd to employ a literary device in a supposedly literal event.
(December 5, 2012 at 4:00 pm)John V Wrote:
Darkstar Wrote:Should I start quoting Revelation about just what god 'lets' Satan do?
If you thought it would do any good you would have started by now.
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
We can establish both that this dragon is Satan, and that he "leads the whole world astray".
Revelation 13:4-8
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
The devil and his new sidekick defeat god's chosen and take over the entire world...why?
Revelation 13:11-17
Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
Worship me or die...sound familiar?
Revelation 19:19-21
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Some heavenly knight throws the two beasts into hell and kills everybody who was brainwashed/threatened into worshipping it.If you read no other, read the one below
Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
All of that misery, when he could have done this in the first place? He "must" release Satan, knowing what will happen? Does this make any sense to you? (Note that it says 'decieve', not 'corrupt', as in these people were honestly tricked, not that they were evil.)
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
RE: Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?
December 5, 2012 at 5:29 pm
(December 5, 2012 at 4:29 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So, either he is deliberately being a thug, or these people really are totally evil.
How is it being a thug to give people life?
Quote:It seems odd to employ a literary device in a supposedly literal event.
That would be odd, which is why I assumed you were using the more general meaning of symbolic. I guess I shouldn't have given you the benefit of the doubt!
Quote:
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
We can establish both that this dragon is Satan, and that he "leads the whole world astray".
Revelation 13:4-8
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
The devil and his new sidekick defeat god's chosen and take over the entire world...why?
Good question, and part of the reason that I think God has deals with Satan (and possibly other angels) that we're not privy too.
Quote:
Revelation 13:11-17
Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
Worship me or die...sound familiar?
No...feel free to explain it if you like.
Quote:
Revelation 19:19-21
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Some heavenly knight throws the two beasts into hell and kills everybody who was brainwashed/threatened into worshipping it.If you read no other, read the one below
Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
All of that misery, when he could have done this in the first place? He "must" release Satan, knowing what will happen? Does this make any sense to you?
It makes sense if God had made deals with Satan that we're not privy to. It's interesting that you're finding some of the very passages that lead me to that position, yet don't make the connection yourself.
Quote:(Note that it says 'decieve', not 'corrupt', as in these people were honestly tricked, not that they were evil.)
