The logical consequences of omnipotence

[catfish]

That's the point though. Read the Bible and there's more reason to believe that God NEVER commanded all of that shit according to the text.
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[Darkstar]

That's the point though. Read the Bible and there's more reason to believe that God NEVER commanded all of that shit according to the text.
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???

I know the bible contradicts itself at times but I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying the OT is a lie, and that the bible itself says so (or something similar)? (and if so, could you give me some idea as to how you concluded this?)

[catfish]

The prophets dude...
The prophets were "sent" every time the Israelites fucked up... They condemned sacrifices, they condemned the murders, they condemned the idolitry. They even condemned the scribes as liars...

I'm really surprised when an atheist claims to have read the Bible and then fights me tooth and nail when I bring up these "points". Even Yeshua (Jesus) called the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites...
It's a story of fucked up people doing fucked up things and claiming "Thus saith the Lord, when the Lord hath not spoken..."
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Ezekiel 22:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord God, when the Lord hath not spoken.
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I really don't think it could be any clearer than that...
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[Darkstar]

I'm really surprised when an atheist claims to have read the Bible and then fights me tooth and nail when I bring up these "points". Even Yeshua (Jesus) called the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites...

"Tooth and nail"? Claimed to have read the bible? Where is this? Do I come across as extremely agressive or something, because I did not intend any vitrol whatsoever in my posts.

Okay, I have "read the bible" in that I have read some of it, but I have not read the whole bible. I am aware that Jesus/Yeshua called the Pharisses hypocrites, but most of the violence is (I think) in the OT.

The prophets were "sent" every time the Israelites fucked up... They condemned sacrifices, they condemned the murders, they condemned the idolitry.

I don't know about you, but I can recall god specifically commanding murders and sacrifices at times.

As for condemning idolitry, you have a solid case. In fact, I don't think any even vaguely legitimate [by religious standards] religious source has tried to claim idolitry was okay. In the bible, people went to it a couple times (like with he gold statue they were worshipping when Moses was away), but they were havily punished for it. Now, I know that the ownership of a cross could be arguably called idolitry, even though they aren't worshipping the idol itself, but what it represents. However, this point is irrelevant to my argument.

Also, keep in mind that the breaking of any of the commandments was punishable by death, and god specifically ordered the execution of someone who picked up sticks on the sabbath (though this most likely isn't the "murder" that was being referred to).

Numbers 15

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The Sabbath-Breaker Put to Death

32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

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Coincidentally, I found this just above it:

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Offerings for Unintentional Sins

22 “‘Now if you as a community unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses— 23 any of the Lord’s commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come— 24 and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering.[g] 25 The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have presented to the Lord for their wrong a food offering and a sin offering. 26 The whole Israelite community and the foreigners residing among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.

27 “‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the Lord for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made, that person will be forgiven. 29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

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What was that about sacrifices? (Keep in mind that this is Moses speaking, being told this directly by god, as indicated by the first verse of the chapter.)
EDIT: Heck, the entire top section of the chapter is god commanding sacrifice after sacrifice.

[catfish]

Jeremiah 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Read the above for yourself, ^^^^ there are descrepancies between the NIV and KJ versions, but the interlinear Bible should help you decide which one makes more sense (have fun with that statement guys).


Jeremiah 8:8-9 New International Version (NIV)

8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
9 The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the Lord,
what kind of wisdom do they have?

One of my favorite verses calling the scribes liars. ^^^

Ezekiel 22:26-29
New International Version (NIV)

26 Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27 Her officials within her are like wolves tearing their prey; they shed blood and kill people to make unjust gain. 28 Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says’—when the Lord has not spoken. 29 The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the foreigner, denying them justice.


You should read the entirety of these chapters for yourself if you read nothing else. Jeremiah 7+8 Ezekiel 22
Now, I didn't necesarily mean that you fight tooth and nail, but look at your post above and think about how you will interpret the passages I gave.
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[Darkstar]

Now, I'm no biblical scholar, but from what I understand the KJV is considered to be less accurate than the NIV.

Let's have a look:
http://courses.missouristate.edu/markgiv...102/bt.htm

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Unacceptable for Serious Bible Study:


The following translations have serious shortcomings of various sorts:

1) The King James Version (KJV) or The New King James Version (NKJV). The KJV was a great literal translation in its day, but that day was the 17th century! Many earlier and more accurate biblical manuscripts were discovered afterwards and most modern translations—including those produced by very conservative Christians—are based on them. The NKJV updates some of the 17th century language, and I like its literalness, but most of the time it relies on the same late and less accurate manuscripts that were available to the KJV translators in the 17th century.

2) The New International Version (NIV). The NIV was the first moderately "dynamic" translation to achieve immense popularity, especially among Evangelicals. It has its merits, but the departure from literal translation theory allowed some phrases and sentences of the Hebrew and Greek to be more paraphrased than translated. This contributed to several inaccurate and misleading translations. Dissatisfaction with the NIV among some fundamentalist and other very conservative Christian scholars was one of the reasons they brought out the ESV.

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http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/was...evised.htm
http://www.biblica.com/niv/accuracy/

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Since its first emergence as a complete text in 1978, the New International Version (NIV®) has stood as the modern pioneer of a different approach—an approach that mirrors the balance of priorities held by the KJV translators four hundred years ago. The NIV® tries to bring its readers as close as possible to the experience of the original audience: providing the best possible blend of transparency to the original documents and comprehension of the original meaning in every verse. The NIV® is founded on the belief that if hearing God's Word the way it was written and understanding it the way it was meant were the hallmarks of the original reading experience, then accuracy in translation demands that neither one of these two criteria be prioritized above the other.

Built upon this philosophy, the NIV® has experienced much the same reaction in the church and beyond as its beloved predecessor whose values it seeks to emulate. Thirty years after its first publication there are more than four hundred million NIV® Bibles in print.

But, unlike its predecessor, the NIV® was designed from the very start with a built-in mechanism to defy the attritional effects of time. Since 1978, the NIV® translation team has continued to meet, year after year, reviewing developments in biblical scholarship and changes in English usage—revising the translation to ensure that it continues to offer its readers an experience that mirrors that of the original audience, and periodically releasing those revisions in updated editions of the text.

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Well, that was conclusive. /sarcasm

More indecision

Like I said, I'm no biblical scholar so I don't have any way of easily figuring out which translation is best.

Just so it doesn't look like I'm dodging:
...wait, what exactly is the interlinear bible? I found this page that says it is the interlinear bible, but it also says it is the New American Standard Version. Or is intelinear just in referenc to the Hebrew text between lines? (In which case, are you referring to the interlinear NIV or KJV, if they exist?)
If I don't respond in a timely manner, it is because it is finals week at the university, and I need to study.

[catfish]

Greek
Hebrew
http://www.biblegateway.com/
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[Darkstar]

Greek
Hebrew
http://www.biblegateway.com/
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Well, the interlinear bible does say what you said it did (not that I thought you would lie, though I don't think there is an interlinear bible on biblegateway, unless you were just pointing it out to me, but I already knew about that one because it is where usually go to look up passages).

I looked at the interlinear for Numbers 15 and found this:

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land of your habitations, which I give unto you,
3 And will make an offering by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the Lord, of the herd, or of the flock

4 Then shall he that offereth
his offering unto the LORD
bring a meat offering of a
tenth deal of flour mingled
with the fourth [part] of an
hin of oil.

5 And the fourth [part] of
an hin of wine for a drink
offering shalt thou prepare
with the burnt offering or
sacrifice, for one lamb.
6 Or for a ram, thou shalt
prepare [for] a meat
offering two tenth deals of
flour mingled with the third
[part] of an hin of oil.

And it goes on and on.
Finally, something we can agree on! (or did you mean something else? Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are trying to say that scribes fabricated that passage, but they could have just as easily fabricated the one saying the previous passage [Numbers 15] was false...right?)

[catfish]

I'm saying that with several different passages stating the scribes, prophets and priests lied, you have to discern what is real and what is made up. (of course you're welcome to reject all of it)
Combine that with 3 separate places in the Bible that states that God wrote his laws on the hearts of men and you have what it takes to determine right from wrong on your own irregardless of what the fundies and atheists say.
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[Cato]

Catfish,
Your recent posts suggest that you are a fan of Jeremiah. You do realize that Jeremiah was a bullfrog, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2wutEzjy_E