The purpose of god

[Baalzebutt]

Everything bad is a sin against God, because God stands for good. He could not be just otherwise.

God is needed in cases where justice cannot be served, because only he can exact it. You don't get to see it.

What is evolved is forgiveness. Primitive justice seeks an eye for an eye. Justice without God is not justice. The justice system falls over with naturalistic morality at its core.

My statement assumes that we know if Dahmer was fogiven for sin. Without coming to God and seeking forgiveness, none is offerred. If he had no understanding of guilt he had no need of God or forgiveness.

You assume that Dahmer was bad, and deserves punishment, by judging what is abhorrent to you. By assuming to know what motivated him. Our justice is limited to human understanding, which is far from perfect. What is the benefit to you or anyone else that someone is punished? Does that make you feel better? Are you deluded into understanding that something has paid the price for some injustice you understand? Do you need to see a sacrifice in order to see balance?

See there's what Xtianity offers... a sacrifice without blood letting. Civilised justice. An understanding of the greater good and that our desire to exact pain for an imbalance, that someone always has to pay for bad stuff, is not good for us. It destroys us just like any person doing bad stuff gets destroyed by it. We need to break the chain. Here's a way to do it.

WHile I appreciate your answer )well worded, logical, and even kind of convicing) it still ignores the need for justice within society.

Knowing that someone has been punished for their crimes plays a number of important roles in a societal context, not the least of which is the sending of a broader message that certain types of behaviors are not tolerated in our society. This makes for a civil society that takes care of itself in the absence of a god who would do the same.

There is no way that you can convince me that laying my sins on jesus is in any way a just outcome. Forgiveness without bloodletting, or "civilised" justice as you put it, is simply taking responsibility from one and putting it on another. Sacrifice aside, "justice", at its core, means "fair". Placing my sins on another is nothing even approaching fair.

So, until god's justice actually becomes just, I am not interested in salvation.

[fr0d0]

I think you are saying that without justice you can see acted out in front of you, you can't understand how it is justice.

Jesus said about paying what is owed to Ceasar to Ceasar. To me this is earthly debts. I mentioned it before because I think it's important, and is certainly taught in Churches I've been to. People immitating Christ (Church members?) are for upholding laws and being law abiding.

What good is having sins forgiven? To me... it means being free to realise my potential. Not being hampered by guilt for my bad self. What if Dahmer was forgiven? Why deny him that right? He should pay his debt if that were possible. You say it isn't. Fair enough. My reasoning is that in eternity, God wins everyone over to his irresistable good. So at some point even the worst evil gets assimilated. Justice, even posthumous justice gets played out where people suffer for the bad stuff they do. When they eventually work out that good has to win, they join everyone else.

[Baalzebutt]

I think you are saying that without justice you can see acted out in front of you, you can't understand how it is justice.

Jesus said about paying what is owed to Ceasar to Ceasar. To me this is earthly debts. I mentioned it before because I think it's important, and is certainly taught in Churches I've been to. People immitating Christ (Church members?) are for upholding laws and being law abiding.

What good is having sins forgiven? To me... it means being free to realise my potential. Not being hampered by guilt for my bad self. What if Dahmer was forgiven? Why deny him that right? He should pay his debt if that were possible. You say it isn't. Fair enough. My reasoning is that in eternity, God wins everyone over to his irresistable good. So at some point even the worst evil gets assimilated. Justice, even posthumous justice gets played out where people suffer for the bad stuff they do. When they eventually work out that good has to win, they join everyone else.

Unless, of course, you commit the unpardonable sin of not believing.