A challenge about women and marriage in Islam

[Muslim Scholar]

It is her to decide!

Oh really? Then muslims must be the shittiest parents around, because all the 9-year-old who 'get to decide for themselves' are the worst brats ever. And somehow I doubt that in a society build on a masculine hierarchy that the father will listen to the opinion of a girl-child.

She has the choice of refusal

in UK she will have sex with another child
in US she has the choice of marriage or have sex with another child

Really? So when someone wants sex, it's readily available? And instead of having sex with someone your own age, you should have sex with someone decades older? Being interested in sex is not the same as wanting to have sex.

Of course marrying an adult is much better than marrying or having sex with another child!

Durex Sex Survey (2005): Average age of loss of virginity.

Has nothing to do with the legislation

[Kayenneh]

Has nothing to do with the legislation

It wasn't supposed to do that either. As you might have noticed, the youngest to lose their virginity was the Icelanders at 15.6. Where are all your super horny 9-year-olds?

[paulpablo]

I'm going to go out to the gym now and try and have a productive day, while I'm gone you can carry on trying to argue that a system which allows a 40 year old man to beat and have sex with a 9 year old girl is "better" because you say some 9 year olds are horny so they should be allowed to have sex with adults.

Add to that the fact that the system is easily corruptable and a lot of these girls get pulled out of education and actually don't even want to be in the marriage but are forced by their parents.

Notice my use of words here I said they ARE forced, this isn't a speculation of what might happen under Islamic laws this is what does happen, so you can't say this isn't allowable under islamic law, it DOES happen within this Islamic system because of how easily corruptible it is.

Remember we are arguing about a system that actually is in place here, not a theoretical one.

[Dragonetti]

Has nothing to do with the legislation

It wasn't supposed to do that either. As you might have noticed, the youngest to lose their virginity was the Icelanders at 15.6. Where are all your super horny 9-year-olds?

Nine year olds are contemplating adultery.

[Rayaan]

I'm going to go out to the gym now and try and have a productive day, while I'm gone you can carry on trying to argue that a system which allows a 40 year old man to beat and have sex with a 9 year old girl is "better" because you say some 9 year olds are horny so they should be allowed to have sex with adults.

Add to that the fact that the system is easily corruptable and a lot of these girls get pulled out of education and actually don't even want to be in the marriage but are forced by their parents.

1. In Islam, it is clearly forbidden for a Muslim man to marry a woman if it is against her will as the Quran states:

"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them , except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good." - (Surah 4:29)

So, if some Muslim parents force their daughters to get married when they don't really want to (which happens quite often), then that is wrong, according to their own religion.

2. The opinion that Aisha was a 9-year-old girl when she got married to Muhammad is not a settled matter. The exact age durng her marriage and the consummation of her marriage with Muhammad is disputed amongst scholars because there are several other hadiths/narrations which suggest that, according to calculations derived from specific dates, she could not have been 9 years old when she got married to Muhammad. Most of them suggest that she was at least 12 at that time.

http://realdeen.wordpress.com/2006/07/30...rat-aisha/

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- According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.

- Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.

- Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.

- Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.

- According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.

- Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn Urwa reporting on the authority of his father. All the narratives of this event have been reported through narrators from Iraq, where Hisham ibn Urwa is reported to have shifted after living in Madinah for seventy-one years. It is reported in one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Muhammad reports that Yaqub ibn Shaibah said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq”. It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq. Another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Muhammad reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly.

- According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.

- According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

- According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud.Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.

- Tabaqat ibn Sa’d, 8:58; Ansab al-Ashraf, 1:410. Opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. Their marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-ghaba, 5:501).

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3. I discussed the same topic in an older thread that I created where I presented my arguments step-by-step, in the posts below:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-7027-pos...#pid139862
http://atheistforums.org/thread-7027-pos...#pid140407
http://atheistforums.org/thread-7027-pos...#pid140629

[Muslim Scholar]

2. The opinion that Aisha was a 9-year-old girl when she got married to Muhammad is not a settled matter. The exact age durng her marriage and the consummation of her marriage with Muhammad is disputed amongst scholars because there are several other hadiths/narrations which suggest that, according to calculations derived from specific dates, she could not have been 9 years old when she got married to Muhammad. Most of them suggest that she was at least 12 at that time.

Actually her age doesn't matter, because Islam doesn't put a restriction on age
If a girl is physically and mentally suitable to be married she can

(same rules applies in California)

[Zen Badger]

2. The opinion that Aisha was a 9-year-old girl when she got married to Muhammad is not a settled matter. The exact age durng her marriage and the consummation of her marriage with Muhammad is disputed amongst scholars because there are several other hadiths/narrations which suggest that, according to calculations derived from specific dates, she could not have been 9 years old when she got married to Muhammad. Most of them suggest that she was at least 12 at that time.

Actually her age doesn't matter, because Islam doesn't put a restriction on age
If a girl is physically and mentally suitable to be married she can

(same rules applies in California)

According to Khomeni even a baby girl is eligible for marriage and sex.

Isn't that right MS

[Dragonetti]

2. The opinion that Aisha was a 9-year-old girl when she got married to Muhammad is not a settled matter. The exact age durng her marriage and the consummation of her marriage with Muhammad is disputed amongst scholars because there are several other hadiths/narrations which suggest that, according to calculations derived from specific dates, she could not have been 9 years old when she got married to Muhammad. Most of them suggest that she was at least 12 at that time.

Actually her age doesn't matter, because Islam doesn't put a restriction on age
If a girl is physically and mentally suitable to be married she can

(same rules applies in California)

Again you do not see many if any nine year old marrying at the age. Parents would not allow their still growing child to marry at that age. Most children at that age do not even understand the entanglements of marriage.

[Muslim Scholar]

According to Khomeni even a baby girl is eligible for marriage and sex.

Khomeni is not a legitimate source for Sunnah!

but statistics shows that girls can start to have puberty by the age of 7, it is rare but it may happen.

[Zen Badger]

According to Khomeni even a baby girl is eligible for marriage and sex.

Khomeni is not a legitimate source for Sunnah!

but statistics shows that girls can start to have puberty by the age of 7, it is rare but it may happen.

Please provide evidence that Khomeni isn't a legitimate source for sunnah.
(apart from your baseless assertions that is)

And so what if a girl can start puberty at the age of seven, that doesnt mean she is ready to marry some dirty old perverted, goat molesting shitbag.