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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 10:40 am
(This post was last modified: May 14, 2013 at 10:42 am by Tonus.)
(May 13, 2013 at 7:03 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Then what's the point of the test, a.k.a. life? Isn't the whole point of existence to make a choice to be with or without god? If god knows how everyone will turn out, what's the point of the whole charade?
I think that the more relevant question is- what guarantee does a believer have that god will follow through on his promises? If his actions cannot be evil, if his decisions cannot be unjust, then nothing stops him from sending his most faithful follower to hell simply because he finds it amusing.
The story of Job is a reminder that serving god faithfully won't stop him from punishing you severely. Near the end of the narrative, god lectures Job. Not because he wanted to explain why he'd allowed so many people to be treated so horribly (remember that Job's servants and children were massacred), but to give Job a holy dressing-down for wanting to know why he was suffering.
God can reward the most terrible sinner with eternal heaven and punish the most devout servant with eternal hell, and it would be both justified and good. Why serve something like that?
Oh, nice. 666th post!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 10:45 am
(This post was last modified: May 14, 2013 at 10:46 am by ideologue08.)
(May 14, 2013 at 10:40 am)Tonus Wrote: God can reward the most terrible sinner with eternal heaven and punish the most devout servant with eternal hell, and it would be both justified and good. Why serve something like that? That's not true. In any case, people can believe whatever they want and everyone will bear the consequences of their actions. For example, I can complain about the rules of Great Britain all I want, but that's not going to change the fact that I will be imprisoned if I commit crimes. Similarly, you can complain about God all you want, but that's not going to change a damn thing, you're just going to have to deal with it.
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 10:51 am
(May 14, 2013 at 10:45 am)mo66 Wrote: That's not true. Of course it isn't true, that nonsensical tyrant doesn't exist. My point is that those who assert that god is incapable of doing wrong, even though he does things like command his followers to murder and rape, are describing a merciless and capricious being... that they worship.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 10:57 am
(May 14, 2013 at 10:51 am)Tonus Wrote: (May 14, 2013 at 10:45 am)mo66 Wrote: That's not true. Of course it isn't true, that nonsensical tyrant doesn't exist. My point is that those who assert that god is incapable of doing wrong, even though he does things like command his followers to murder and rape, are describing a merciless and capricious being... that they worship. Hold that thought.
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 11:05 am
(May 14, 2013 at 10:40 am)Tonus Wrote: I think that the more relevant question is- what guarantee does a believer have that god will follow through on his promises?
Well, from what I understand, there is no promise. There's just a bunch of guidelines you follow and then hope for the best. That's the risk you take for playing the game, even though you were never asked to participate.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 12:19 pm
(This post was last modified: May 14, 2013 at 12:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 14, 2013 at 10:45 am)mo66 Wrote: For example, I can complain about the rules of Great Britain all I want, but that's not going to change the fact that I will be imprisoned if I commit crimes. On that note you're horribly mistaken in the case of the UK, and we have a similar system here. You absolutely can complain, and depending on your compliant and the validity and weight of your argument you may not be - and the law itself can even change.
Quote: Similarly, you can complain about God all you want, but that's not going to change a damn thing, you're just going to have to deal with it.
Therein lies the trouble, clinging desperately to a dusty old tome as though it offered any absolutes whatsoever is ridiculous. Specifically if the absolute amounts to nothing more than "because a ghost told some guy that -"
That kind of shit deserves no place in law, or anything even remotely similar to it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 1:02 pm
(This post was last modified: May 14, 2013 at 1:04 pm by cneron.)
(May 14, 2013 at 2:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Where I live ron atheism is the clear majority.
As may be, but I was referring to the world, both actual and virtual, when I referred to minority/majority, not your personal space. Sorry if I was unclear, but I thought that would be obvious when I wondered "why a theist/Xian/whatever would want to frequent this site at all."
A Christian complaining about lack of representation on an atheist site is a bit like a minority in Zimbabwe saying there aren't enough white people.
- C.
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 2:14 pm
I don't agree with you ron. The media of the civilised world is predominantly atheist IMO. This space is certainly predominantly atheist of course. Perhaps it matches my surroundings most accurately. Perhaps I enjoy the different perspectives I find here from a wide vareity of faith positions. Maybe an atheist perspective is the truly questioning one where the widest exploration of differing positions is possible.
I certainly don't complain about lack of representation.
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 2:20 pm
(This post was last modified: May 14, 2013 at 2:20 pm by Simon Moon.)
(May 14, 2013 at 2:14 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The media of the civilised world is predominantly atheist IMO. This space is certainly predominantly atheist of course.
A more accurate statement would be that the media in the civilize world is secular, not atheist.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: AF Hall of Shame (Theist edition)
May 14, 2013 at 2:23 pm
(May 13, 2013 at 10:27 pm)Faith No More Wrote: (May 13, 2013 at 7:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God, who knows the answer, isn't making the choice nomore, you, who don't know, are.
But that only brings up my original objection. If the point is to choose god or not god, and god knows the choice you will make, why is it necessary to actually go through it? The actual decision making seems superfluous.
Same answer NoMore. What you will choose is what God saw you doing after you chose it. God is there at the end of the universe with the score sheet. The good news is that you got to heaven. How much you punish yourself on the way is your choice.
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