Not again! -- Encouragement Please

[Drich]

Hey,

I am not saying this at all - You say that people here do not care for my eternal life but you have to first explain why there is no strong evidence of Jesus.

because what there is is always trivialized and dismissed, not on actual content mind you but on trivial standards that no other person in that time frame could stand up to either.

I read the Bible like most Christians every day but I never *Got* it! Until I took a step back and looked at it objectively.

But, you did not look at it objectivly. You have followed the EXACT same path as everyone elses here who has wander away from Christianity. You make the same observations and have the same objections. This is not an objective view point. This is akin to signing a petition. Someone smarter than you has come up with a list of reasons as to why he does not believe and you made these reasons your own, by siging your name to the list.

Alot of people here were Ex-Christians so you cannot say they do not care about my well being, If God is Just and fair he will understand completely my angle.

Which is why He let you leave, as the prodigal son was allowed to leave his Father.

He will see that I have studied hard on his faulty word and that I cannot love someone that 'MEN' paint as a tyrant.

until you were confronted and shown your errors.. Then the work stopped.

Perhaps God is a loving person but the bible does not make him out to be loving at all - Quite the opposite.

Who defination of love are you using? There are 4 greek words used in the bible that all describe a aspect of love, but in the english all simply get translated into the word love. Which to us means 'free reign over another.' Which again has nothing to do with the biblical defination of the term. In short you do not understand the depth of God's love.

Understand these people who do not care about me - Well do you think perhaps they would be the first to give me a genuine answer with no Apologetic twisting to make it fit.

It's funny how all of you point to anything that does not fit your slanted view of Christianity as an 'appologetic twist.' Here's a thought. Maybe the douche who hates God and Hates Christianity does not have the best or even truth perspective of Christianity. Maybe someone who has spent his whole adult life studying the bible has a deeper understanding than he who spent a total of an hour a week in sunday school for the last few years..

You say that you are surprised - Try saying that when members of your family die in Unbelief.

My Grandfather committed sucide in unbelief, and my dad is an old spiritual 'hippy' who has a 'special deal' with God that allows him to be married to my mother and still have a girlfriend on the side.

I would rather give God the middle finger than to worship him knowing hes letting my loved ones roast in Hell.

Your 'loved ones' Chose Hell over God (if indeed they are there.)What is God to do drag them into Heaven kicking and screaming?

Just so that I can spend the rest of eternity worshiping him to tell him how great he is for being so 'Just??'.

Is it your opinion that in all of eternity future you will not grow mentally or Spiritually? That you will remain blinded to everything outside your current scope of knoweledge?

-Maybe just Maybe, there is more going one in the universe than what you learned in sunday school.

When I meet the Father at Judgement I will be pointing the blame not at Jesus or the Holy Spirit but directly at him!

I said this very thing when I was 16 or 17.

Actually how do you know it wont do me any good to blame God?

Ask God to give you a preview of your comming judgement, and see what you can say.

Sure if hes going to condemn me to hell why not give him the finger?

Just the finger?!?!? You puss. I said to God if you give me a chance I will spit in your eye.. I got my chance, and needless to say I did not spit in God's eye.

You forget that throughout the OT god found sinners righteous! Take Noah and his family! were they the only non sinners in the entire world?

, and David, Soloman, Abraham Isac..etc..

I think a God that created us and allowed us to fall from Grace has to take part of the blame.

Which is why Jesus died on the cross for us. He took the blame for everything and everyone.

I never once asked him for Life and I never once told him I want to goto hell but I sure as heck dont want to goto heaven either. So why is it one or the other.

Because either you are apart of creation or you are not.

Free Will - That I make my own decisions

Ah, no. that is the 'Greek' version of Free will.

God's version only has you making one choice. To be redeemed for your sins. For Christ and Paul tell us we are bound to sin. Meaning we are slaves to sin and have no "Greek style free will." If you do not believe this to be true then decide to live a life free from all sin.

I was a Christian and this is where the problem was - I prayed to God and asked him for help! None was received - You can say that I didn't hear him or whatever but none was received.

How do you know for sure that this time in your life where you throw out and question your 'sunday school faith' is not the Help you asked for? what if God is having you tear down your beliefs to the foundations so you can have the oppertunity to build something that will provide you the 'help' you will always need?

Again that is why the prodigal son was allowed to leave. Because his father too understood that sometimes the only way to 'help' someone is to allow them to hit bottom first, and start over.

Drich that is not what I said and you are adding to it and thats not what I meant.

Question: Are there similarities?

Holy Spirit: Spiritual Entity / From God / (Possesses in a form of Guides/Controls - in a Good Way) / Has a desire for the human soul. Convicts us of our sinful nature and need to repent. Draws us closer to God.

Demon: Spiritual Entity / From God / (Posesses in a form of Guides/Controls - in a Bad Way) / Has a desire for the human soul.
Makes us commit sin and makes us think we have sinned where we have not. Draws us further from God.

When I said this passive remark when talking to myself out loud when working this through that is what I meant by the context! I did not mean that its evil or anything I meant it exactly as above.

Understand some Christians said

Its the Holy Spirit convicting you of your need to repent and making you feel guilty.
And Others Said
Its a Demon convincing you that you have sinned and making you feel guilty.

So when I said one was like the other I meant it as in (Well how the hell can it be both a Demon and the Holy Spirit) making me believe I committed this sin.

So surely for Christians to have a divided view point there would have to be common characteristics between both entities as if there are two view points they must be similar enough to confuse the both of them. Thats what I meant!

Before I play your word game you must first answer my challenge. I postiulated that the Pharisees did not know who the Holy Spirit was and there for could not take His name in vain. (Which is what you seem to think blasphemeing the Holy Spirit actually is, because your GF said so.)

You stated this rant by saying your an objective thinker, so show me and come to your own conclusions, by first thinking it all through. If taking the Spirit's Name in vain is The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit Christ spoke of in Mat and Mark, then show me where the guilty Pharisees even utter His name let alone misuse it?

For us to proceed down your line of logic first you must show that uttering the H/S name in an inflamitory way or mis using his name (like pairing Him with Demons) is indeed a sin. Do this and we can have a discussion. If you can't then know your above 'mental' exercise is pointless.

I have shown you several time Christ Judged their action/beliefs as being the blaspheme He pointed to. They never even heard of the H/S

[Esquilax]

But, you did not look at it objectivly. You have followed the EXACT same path as everyone elses here who has wander away from Christianity. You make the same observations and have the same objections. This is not an objective view point. This is akin to signing a petition. Someone smarter than you has come up with a list of reasons as to why he does not believe and you made these reasons your own, by siging your name to the list.

Is it possible to have an objective viewpoint if it clashes with your own, Drich?

[The Reality Salesman01]

---

Hey,

I am not saying this at all - You say that people here do not care for my eternal life but you have to first explain why there is no strong evidence of Jesus.

because what there is is always trivialized and dismissed, not on actual content mind you but on trivial standards that no other person in that time frame could stand up to either.

I read the Bible like most Christians every day but I never *Got* it! Until I took a step back and looked at it objectively.

But, you did not look at it objectivly. You have followed the EXACT same path as everyone elses here who has wander away from Christianity. You make the same observations and have the same objections. This is not an objective view point. This is akin to signing a petition. Someone smarter than you has come up with a list of reasons as to why he does not believe and you made these reasons your own, by siging your name to the list.

Alot of people here were Ex-Christians so you cannot say they do not care about my well being, If God is Just and fair he will understand completely my angle.

Which is why He let you leave, as the prodigal son was allowed to leave his Father.

He will see that I have studied hard on his faulty word and that I cannot love someone that 'MEN' paint as a tyrant.

until you were confronted and shown your errors.. Then the work stopped.

Perhaps God is a loving person but the bible does not make him out to be loving at all - Quite the opposite.

Who defination of love are you using? There are 4 greek words used in the bible that all describe a aspect of love, but in the english all simply get translated into the word love. Which to us means 'free reign over another.' Which again has nothing to do with the biblical defination of the term. In short you do not understand the depth of God's love.

Understand these people who do not care about me - Well do you think perhaps they would be the first to give me a genuine answer with no Apologetic twisting to make it fit.

It's funny how all of you point to anything that does not fit your slanted view of Christianity as an 'appologetic twist.' Here's a thought. Maybe the douche who hates God and Hates Christianity does not have the best or even truth perspective of Christianity. Maybe someone who has spent his whole adult life studying the bible has a deeper understanding than he who spent a total of an hour a week in sunday school for the last few years..

You say that you are surprised - Try saying that when members of your family die in Unbelief.

My Grandfather committed sucide in unbelief, and my dad is an old spiritual 'hippy' who has a 'special deal' with God that allows him to be married to my mother and still have a girlfriend on the side.

I would rather give God the middle finger than to worship him knowing hes letting my loved ones roast in Hell.

Your 'loved ones' Chose Hell over God (if indeed they are there.)What is God to do drag them into Heaven kicking and screaming?

Just so that I can spend the rest of eternity worshiping him to tell him how great he is for being so 'Just??'.

Is it your opinion that in all of eternity future you will not grow mentally or Spiritually? That you will remain blinded to everything outside your current scope of knoweledge?

-Maybe just Maybe, there is more going one in the universe than what you learned in sunday school.

When I meet the Father at Judgement I will be pointing the blame not at Jesus or the Holy Spirit but directly at him!

I said this very thing when I was 16 or 17.

Actually how do you know it wont do me any good to blame God?

Ask God to give you a preview of your comming judgement, and see what you can say.

Sure if hes going to condemn me to hell why not give him the finger?

Just the finger?!?!? You puss. I said to God if you give me a chance I will spit in your eye.. I got my chance, and needless to say I did not spit in God's eye.

You forget that throughout the OT god found sinners righteous! Take Noah and his family! were they the only non sinners in the entire world?

, and David, Soloman, Abraham Isac..etc..

I think a God that created us and allowed us to fall from Grace has to take part of the blame.

Which is why Jesus died on the cross for us. He took the blame for everything and everyone.

I never once asked him for Life and I never once told him I want to goto hell but I sure as heck dont want to goto heaven either. So why is it one or the other.

Because either you are apart of creation or you are not.

Free Will - That I make my own decisions

Ah, no. that is the 'Greek' version of Free will.

God's version only has you making one choice. To be redeemed for your sins. For Christ and Paul tell us we are bound to sin. Meaning we are slaves to sin and have no "Greek style free will." If you do not believe this to be true then decide to live a life free from all sin.

I was a Christian and this is where the problem was - I prayed to God and asked him for help! None was received - You can say that I didn't hear him or whatever but none was received.

How do you know for sure that this time in your life where you throw out and question your 'sunday school faith' is not the Help you asked for? what if God is having you tear down your beliefs to the foundations so you can have the oppertunity to build something that will provide you the 'help' you will always need?

Again that is why the prodigal son was allowed to leave. Because his father too understood that sometimes the only way to 'help' someone is to allow them to hit bottom first, and start over.

Drich that is not what I said and you are adding to it and thats not what I meant.

Question: Are there similarities?

Holy Spirit: Spiritual Entity / From God / (Possesses in a form of Guides/Controls - in a Good Way) / Has a desire for the human soul. Convicts us of our sinful nature and need to repent. Draws us closer to God.

Demon: Spiritual Entity / From God / (Posesses in a form of Guides/Controls - in a Bad Way) / Has a desire for the human soul.
Makes us commit sin and makes us think we have sinned where we have not. Draws us further from God.

When I said this passive remark when talking to myself out loud when working this through that is what I meant by the context! I did not mean that its evil or anything I meant it exactly as above.

Understand some Christians said

Its the Holy Spirit convicting you of your need to repent and making you feel guilty.
And Others Said
Its a Demon convincing you that you have sinned and making you feel guilty.

So when I said one was like the other I meant it as in (Well how the hell can it be both a Demon and the Holy Spirit) making me believe I committed this sin.

So surely for Christians to have a divided view point there would have to be common characteristics between both entities as if there are two view points they must be similar enough to confuse the both of them. Thats what I meant!

Before I play your word game you must first answer my challenge. I postiulated that the Pharisees did not know who the Holy Spirit was and there for could not take His name in vain. (Which is what you seem to think blasphemeing the Holy Spirit actually is, because your GF said so.)

You stated this rant by saying your an objective thinker, so show me and come to your own conclusions, by first thinking it all through. If taking the Spirit's Name in vain is The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit Christ spoke of in Mat and Mark, then show me where the guilty Pharisees even utter His name let alone misuse it?

For us to proceed down your line of logic first you must show that uttering the H/S name in an inflamitory way or mis using his name (like pairing Him with Demons) is indeed a sin. Do this and we can have a discussion. If you can't then know your above 'mental' exercise is pointless.

I have shown you several time Christ Judged their action/beliefs as being the blaspheme He pointed to. They never even heard of the H/S

---

[themonkeyman]

Hey,

I am not saying this at all - You say that people here do not care for my eternal life but you have to first explain why there is no strong evidence of Jesus.

because what there is is always trivialized and dismissed, not on actual content mind you but on trivial standards that no other person in that time frame could stand up to either.

I read the Bible like most Christians every day but I never *Got* it! Until I took a step back and looked at it objectively.

But, you did not look at it objectivly. You have followed the EXACT same path as everyone elses here who has wander away from Christianity. You make the same observations and have the same objections. This is not an objective view point. This is akin to signing a petition. Someone smarter than you has come up with a list of reasons as to why he does not believe and you made these reasons your own, by siging your name to the list.

Alot of people here were Ex-Christians so you cannot say they do not care about my well being, If God is Just and fair he will understand completely my angle.

Which is why He let you leave, as the prodigal son was allowed to leave his Father.

He will see that I have studied hard on his faulty word and that I cannot love someone that 'MEN' paint as a tyrant.

until you were confronted and shown your errors.. Then the work stopped.

Perhaps God is a loving person but the bible does not make him out to be loving at all - Quite the opposite.

Who defination of love are you using? There are 4 greek words used in the bible that all describe a aspect of love, but in the english all simply get translated into the word love. Which to us means 'free reign over another.' Which again has nothing to do with the biblical defination of the term. In short you do not understand the depth of God's love.

Understand these people who do not care about me - Well do you think perhaps they would be the first to give me a genuine answer with no Apologetic twisting to make it fit.

It's funny how all of you point to anything that does not fit your slanted view of Christianity as an 'appologetic twist.' Here's a thought. Maybe the douche who hates God and Hates Christianity does not have the best or even truth perspective of Christianity. Maybe someone who has spent his whole adult life studying the bible has a deeper understanding than he who spent a total of an hour a week in sunday school for the last few years..

You say that you are surprised - Try saying that when members of your family die in Unbelief.

My Grandfather committed sucide in unbelief, and my dad is an old spiritual 'hippy' who has a 'special deal' with God that allows him to be married to my mother and still have a girlfriend on the side.

I would rather give God the middle finger than to worship him knowing hes letting my loved ones roast in Hell.

Your 'loved ones' Chose Hell over God (if indeed they are there.)What is God to do drag them into Heaven kicking and screaming?

Just so that I can spend the rest of eternity worshiping him to tell him how great he is for being so 'Just??'.

Is it your opinion that in all of eternity future you will not grow mentally or Spiritually? That you will remain blinded to everything outside your current scope of knoweledge?

-Maybe just Maybe, there is more going one in the universe than what you learned in sunday school.

When I meet the Father at Judgement I will be pointing the blame not at Jesus or the Holy Spirit but directly at him!

I said this very thing when I was 16 or 17.

Actually how do you know it wont do me any good to blame God?

Ask God to give you a preview of your comming judgement, and see what you can say.

Sure if hes going to condemn me to hell why not give him the finger?

Just the finger?!?!? You puss. I said to God if you give me a chance I will spit in your eye.. I got my chance, and needless to say I did not spit in God's eye.

You forget that throughout the OT god found sinners righteous! Take Noah and his family! were they the only non sinners in the entire world?

, and David, Soloman, Abraham Isac..etc..

I think a God that created us and allowed us to fall from Grace has to take part of the blame.

Which is why Jesus died on the cross for us. He took the blame for everything and everyone.

I never once asked him for Life and I never once told him I want to goto hell but I sure as heck dont want to goto heaven either. So why is it one or the other.

Because either you are apart of creation or you are not.

Free Will - That I make my own decisions

Ah, no. that is the 'Greek' version of Free will.

God's version only has you making one choice. To be redeemed for your sins. For Christ and Paul tell us we are bound to sin. Meaning we are slaves to sin and have no "Greek style free will." If you do not believe this to be true then decide to live a life free from all sin.

I was a Christian and this is where the problem was - I prayed to God and asked him for help! None was received - You can say that I didn't hear him or whatever but none was received.

How do you know for sure that this time in your life where you throw out and question your 'sunday school faith' is not the Help you asked for? what if God is having you tear down your beliefs to the foundations so you can have the oppertunity to build something that will provide you the 'help' you will always need?

Again that is why the prodigal son was allowed to leave. Because his father too understood that sometimes the only way to 'help' someone is to allow them to hit bottom first, and start over.

Drich that is not what I said and you are adding to it and thats not what I meant.

Question: Are there similarities?

Holy Spirit: Spiritual Entity / From God / (Possesses in a form of Guides/Controls - in a Good Way) / Has a desire for the human soul. Convicts us of our sinful nature and need to repent. Draws us closer to God.

Demon: Spiritual Entity / From God / (Posesses in a form of Guides/Controls - in a Bad Way) / Has a desire for the human soul.
Makes us commit sin and makes us think we have sinned where we have not. Draws us further from God.

When I said this passive remark when talking to myself out loud when working this through that is what I meant by the context! I did not mean that its evil or anything I meant it exactly as above.

Understand some Christians said

Its the Holy Spirit convicting you of your need to repent and making you feel guilty.
And Others Said
Its a Demon convincing you that you have sinned and making you feel guilty.

So when I said one was like the other I meant it as in (Well how the hell can it be both a Demon and the Holy Spirit) making me believe I committed this sin.

So surely for Christians to have a divided view point there would have to be common characteristics between both entities as if there are two view points they must be similar enough to confuse the both of them. Thats what I meant!

Before I play your word game you must first answer my challenge. I postiulated that the Pharisees did not know who the Holy Spirit was and there for could not take His name in vain. (Which is what you seem to think blasphemeing the Holy Spirit actually is, because your GF said so.)

You stated this rant by saying your an objective thinker, so show me and come to your own conclusions, by first thinking it all through. If taking the Spirit's Name in vain is The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit Christ spoke of in Mat and Mark, then show me where the guilty Pharisees even utter His name let alone misuse it?

For us to proceed down your line of logic first you must show that uttering the H/S name in an inflamitory way or mis using his name (like pairing Him with Demons) is indeed a sin. Do this and we can have a discussion. If you can't then know your above 'mental' exercise is pointless.

I have shown you several time Christ Judged their action/beliefs as being the blaspheme He pointed to. They never even heard of the H/S

Hi @Dirich here is one for you.

Listen I know that so many people say that the Holy Spirit and Demons are not the same, One is literally God the other is not that's not up for discussion and I believe they are not the same. Its not possible.

Basically I was sitting thinking 'And I thought that the Holy Spirit takes control of our lives and dwells within us I thought this was possession'.

Then I said to myself aloud 'Is the Holy Spirit like a Demon?' - Because I knew demons possessed people.

Then I went to define what a Demon actually was! Up-to this point I knew it was evil, possessed people and was a spirit.

Then I read on Wikipedia and it said a Demon was an 'Unclean Spirit', I started worrying because up-to this point I didn't know a Demon was an unclean spirit. I thought only Satin was an unclean spirit.

At this point I thought and still believe that by me asking this question to myself that I have committed the sin. I would never say the H/S and Demons are the same only that theology shows that they have one or two things in common.

E.g. the word (Holy Spirit) = Clean Spirit / Demon = Unclean Spirit == Both Spirits
Holy Spirit = Good / Demon = Evil == Both on the same spectrum of Good an Evil.
Holy Spirit = God / Demon Not = God == Both are exact opposites of one another
Holy Spirit = Dwells within us / Demons = Possess us == Very similar in meaning (I Think?)
Holy Spirit = Makes us feel guilty for sinning and need for repentance / Demons = Make us feel happy for sinning and no need for repentance == Both have exact opposite Goals.
Holy Spirit = Shows us we are forgiven / Demons = Make us feel we are not forgiven == Both again exact opposites.

See Understand Its a strange definition - being a computer scientist makes more sense with this.

Take this basic algebra to make my point

int X = (Clean Spirits);
int Y = (Unclean Spirits);

This means that X is not equal to Y and vice versa. However if we say

int X is an Integer = (Clean Spirits)
int Y is an Integer = (Unclean Spirits)

Then what we can say is that X and Y are both Integers even though they are not the same? You follow. This is on the level I was thinking and this is how I meant it.

So ultimately I am worried because I asked that question to myself and that God will see me saying that they are the same as one another than me saying they have some common attributes.

What do you think,

[Drich]

But, you did not look at it objectivly. You have followed the EXACT same path as everyone elses here who has wander away from Christianity. You make the same observations and have the same objections. This is not an objective view point. This is akin to signing a petition. Someone smarter than you has come up with a list of reasons as to why he does not believe and you made these reasons your own, by siging your name to the list.

Is it possible to have an objective viewpoint if it clashes with your own, Drich?

Absolutely,but again to follow a prescribed path is not being objective. What was being sold to me as objective was indeed the very opposite of the word.

1.
(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
"historians try to be objective and impartial"
synonyms: impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, nonpartisan, disinterested, neutral, uninvolved, even-handed, equitable, fair, fair-minded, just, open-minded, dispassionate, detached, neutral More
antonyms: biased, partial, prejudiced
not dependent on the mind for existence; actual.
"a matter of objective fact"
synonyms: factual, actual, real, empirical, evidence-based, verifiable More
antonyms: subjective

[FallentoReason]

You see Esquilax, Drich is an elitist who undeniably has in his possession the True Interpretation™ of the universe. On that note, I concur that you are merely a sheep who hasn't thought for himself ever since you gained faith in Atheism.

*dry reaches*

[Esquilax]

Absolutely,but again to follow a prescribed path is not being objective. What was being sold to me as objective was indeed the very opposite of the word.

There's nothing in taking a well worn route that's inherently subjective. If the path happens to be correct, then there's nothing flawed about using it; it's hardly an appeal to popularity. Sorry, sometimes a lot of people have the same kinds of thoughts and they're correct. How do we tell?

Well, which corresponds to reality and the available evidence?

[The Reality Salesman01]

Absolutely,but again to follow a prescribed path is not being objective. What was being sold to me as objective was indeed the very opposite of the word.

There's nothing in taking a well worn route that's inherently subjective. If the path happens to be correct, then there's nothing flawed about using it; it's hardly an appeal to popularity. Sorry, sometimes a lot of people have the same kinds of thoughts and they're correct. How do we tell?

Well, which corresponds to reality and the available evidence?

"He who holds a true belief without knowledge is like a blind man that happens to find the right road." -Plato

[Tonus]

Is it possible to have an objective viewpoint if it clashes with your own, Drich?

But this has to be the case, for anyone who subscribes to a belief that there are objective truths. Anyone who purports to be an exception to an absolute truth/law/etc cannot possibly be an exception if it runs contrary to what must be true. If god is the only way to the actual-100%-for-sure-truth, to deny him is to either be wrong or to deliberately deny what cannot be denied. I don't think that there is room for compromise.

I think that's why some of the more egregious mental gymnastics that seem so bizarre seem perfectly rational to the believer. It has to be rational, no matter how irrational it may seem.

[Esquilax]

But this has to be the case, for anyone who subscribes to a belief that there are objective truths. Anyone who purports to be an exception to an absolute truth/law/etc cannot possibly be an exception if it runs contrary to what must be true. If god is the only way to the actual-100%-for-sure-truth, to deny him is to either be wrong or to deliberately deny what cannot be denied. I don't think that there is room for compromise.

Yeah, I sort of just wanted to know where Drich was pinning his label of objectivity; if it's straight up on god then there's simply no point in talking further because he's got a presupposition that disarms rational conversation. Not only that, but he'd be plain wrong; unless he can demonstrate his god beyond his usual A/S/K nonsense, then he's talking about an inherently subjective experience.

I felt there was some wriggle room that made the question worth asking, at any rate.