On "Scholarly Consensus"

[max-greece]

This thread is getting too confused.

The fact that Santorini exploded is well researched and documented (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption) with research continuing to this day.

No-one is arguing that, for example, this caused the Red Sea to dry up at exactly the time Moses and the Israelites were crossing the thing.

It is possible, however, that the Red Sea did empty and that this was observed. That event was then later combined into the miraculous story of Moses and the Israelites fleeing Pharoah's army the latter getting drowned as the sea returned.

In a similar manner all sorts of other strange events may have been observed that might relate to the stories, later created. So it may well have rained frogs, somewhere, for example.

This does not mean that a single eruption was responsible for all the miracles described in the Bible. I am sure plagues of locusts occur from time to time without volcanic assistance. There may have been another cause for water to turn red and blood-like - or it may have been the volcano. Note again: Not so as to appear as a plague at just the right time - to be later incorporated into that story.

There are many examples of natural phenomena that occurred during human existence that probably did get picked up into legend.

The formation of the Black sea (from its origins as a fresh water lake http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Black_Sea) may have spawned all the flood myths, including Noah's.

[Faith No More]

FALSE. The bible documents the oral history evidence for Abraham and Terah. If you dont like the oral tradition or oral history as evidence/testimony bad luck. The bible documents oral history.

An appeal to oral history is as fallacious as "he told me so."

I never ceased to be amazed by a religion that is constantly denigrating humanity but consistently appeals to its ability to keep a story straight for thousands of years.

[Minimalist]

Someone seems flustered.

Flustered? By a fucking moron who believes in fairy tales?

Grow up, asshole. The only ones still clinging to the stupidity of the OT are the extreme nut fundies who really think there was an Adam and Eve and shit like that. Real archaeologists already know better.

In the last quarter century or so, archaeologists have seen one settled assumption after another concerning who the ancient Israelites were and where they came from proved false. Rather than a band of invaders who fought their way into the Holy Land, the Israelites are now thought to have been an 'indigenous culture that developed west of the Jordan River around 1200 B.C. Abraham, Isaac, and the other patriarchs appear to have been spliced together out of various pieces of local lore.

http://www.yorku.ca/dcarveth/false_testament

While bible-thumping fools prattle on about "Abraham" and other silly shit, real archaeology is moving the front lines of the battle down to the Persian period.

You may as well worship Zeus. It is just as real.

[gall]

FALSE. The bible documents the oral history evidence for Abraham and Terah. If you dont like the oral tradition or oral history as evidence/testimony bad luck. The bible documents oral history.

An appeal to oral history is as fallacious as "he told me so."

I never ceased to be amazed by a religion that is constantly denigrating humanity but consistently appeals to its ability to keep a story straight for thousands of years.

Humans cannot even keep a story straight across a phone call or a room LOLOLOLOLOL

[Minimalist]

Cue "special pleading" in 5...4...3...2...1


"Oh, but the bible is DIFFERENT!"

You are dealing with a total asswipe, Gall.

[Lemonvariable72]

...There is neither evidence for any Abraham..

FALSE. The bible documents the oral history evidence for Abraham and Terah. If you dont like the oral tradition or oral history as evidence/testimony bad luck. The bible documents oral history.

...nor for any monotheistic god whatsoever before 13th century BC.

FALSE. The monotheistic concept of a Sky God predates pagan polytheism. (See Karen Armstrongs book - A History of God.)
You need one first single primitive notion of a divine being before you can go on to develop ideas of there perhaps being MORE THAN ONE.

Monotheism is perhaps best summed up by the first half of the Muslim profession of faith: "There is no god but God." Simply put, monotheism is the belief that there is one and only one Supreme Being in the universe; typically, such a belief entails the worship of this God. Many people regard the Abrahamic tradition, which gave rise to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as the first notable instance of monotheism in human history. It is true that Judaism is probably the oldest monotheistic religion that still has a significant number of followers today. However, history tells us of a monotheistic revolution in Egypt that probably predates the authorship of Jewish holy scriptures and definitely predates the unified Kingdom of Israel (circa 1000 B.C.), which allowed Judaism to cultivate its teachings and dogma.

This Egyptian monotheistic revolution arrived under the 18th-dyansty pharaoh named Akhnaton, also known as Amenhotep IV, and his wife, Nefertiti, also known as Nefreteti or Nofretete. Akhnaton and Nefertiti ruled during the 14th century B.C. Nefertiti is well-known to modern scholars because an intriguing, beautiful and well-preserved limestone bust of her was uncovered at Tell el Amarna in 1913. The bust is now part of the Berlin Museum's collection. Yet despite her famous visage, little is known about Nefertiti. One of the most salient facts about her existence is that Nefertiti and her husband promoted a monotheistic belief in an Egyptian god known as Aton.

Aton, or Aten, was a sun god of the Egyptian pantheon, usually depicted in artistic renderings as a solar disc reaching out toward the earth and its inhabitants with many-fingered rays of light. Though the Egyptian religion had traditionally been polytheistic, during his reign, Akhnaton promoted Aton to the lofty position of humankind's only god. According to the pharaoh, Aton was not only the most exalted god among many -- he was the only god that was to be worshipped. Thus, Atonism was one of the first truly monotheistic religions. Akhnaton attempted to impose Atonism on his subjects by using state power to forbid all other forms of worship. However, after Akhnaton's death, Atonism was gradually abandoned by the Egyptian people and mostly forgotten.

http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/atonism-article
That predates the earliest mention of abraham by atleast 1000 years

---

Cue "special pleading" in 5...4...3...2...1


"Oh, but the bible is DIFFERENT!"

You are dealing with a total asswipe, Gall.

You remind me of listening to bertrand russels 1927 broadcast of why I am not a christian. Nearly a hundred years old and Christian arguments had hardly changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdDYvvevLZk
Well worth watching.

[Minimalist]

They don't do "change" very well.

[Statler Waldorf]

[Doubting Thomas]

And yet, Tacitus tells us that during Tiberius' reign all was quiet in Judaea.

Both stories cannot be true.

Ah, I was not aware. I'll have to look that up sometime. Everything I'd heard up until now was that Pilate ran things with an iron fist and crucified many Jewish leaders.

Or perhaps the reason all was quiet is everyone was scared shitless?

Or maybe they were all afraid of the Judean People's Front.

[max-greece]

Ah, I was not aware. I'll have to look that up sometime. Everything I'd heard up until now was that Pilate ran things with an iron fist and crucified many Jewish leaders.

Or perhaps the reason all was quiet is everyone was scared shitless?

Or maybe they were all afraid of the Judean People's Front.

Are you the Popular front of Judea?

Fuck off - we are the Judean People's Front - he's the popular front of Judea - SPLITTER!

LoB - best movie ever made.