The Bible is the claim, not the evidence

[Esquilax]

You just ended up doing three revolutions of the wheel of atheist logic.

Sounds like you've got a fairly basic assumption about how someone you don't even know conducts themselves, if you think that picture is accurate.

[Sword of Christ]

Sounds like you've got a fairly basic assumption about how someone you don't even know conducts themselves, if you think that picture is accurate.

There is nothing in the Bible that would be of any interest or convincing value to an atheist as it was written with atheists in mind. The people who wrote it at the time wouldn't have even known what atheism was it hadn't been invented yet. It was written with people who worship idols in place of God in mind so the ancient Jews would have seen atheism as something along those lines. If you can see yourself as following a man made idol then you would see what the Bible is telling you.

[DeistPaladin]

The people who wrote it at the time wouldn't have even known what atheism was it hadn't been invented yet.

Atheism has always been around since the very first claims about gods were made, long before Yahweh was a twinkle in Abraham's eyes.

The Christians themselves were called "atheists" by their pagan critics. Christianity was, AFAIK, the first religion ever to claim that not only was their god superior to all the others, that it was the only one up there and everyone else was just praying to idols and imaginary beings.

Before Christianity, it was common for people to dabble with different gods and different religions depending on their needs at the time. One could pray to this god for good crops and another god for fertility. When two cultures went to war, they imagined their gods also fighting up in the heavens. Even those devoted to a particular religion, such as the ancient Jews, didn't deny the existence of the other gods, only that the other gods were weaker. The OT is filled with examples.

[Sword of Christ]

Atheism has always been around since the very first claims about gods were made, long before Yahweh was a twinkle in Abraham's eyes.

It goes back to the around the 17th century though at a push you can find a philosophy resembling it in the classical world in the first couple of centuries BC though they still technically believed in the gods. Just as something of interest though the ancient Jews initially didn't really believe in an afterlife, nothing particularly nice anyway you went into the ground that's where you stayed. So God was very much focused here in this life.

The Christians themselves were called "atheists" by their pagan critics.

It's because what they believed in didn't really resemble the proper gods people had been accustomed to.

Christianity was, AFAIK, the first religion ever to claim that not only was their god superior to all the others, that it was the only one up there and everyone else was just praying to idols and imaginary beings.

Well does this look like the kind of being the human mind would invent?



He looks a bit like human to me, the God of the Bible looks nothing like that he looks like nothing at all. You have the invented idols that resemble man and you have the real deal which is in order of magnitude different.

Before Christianity, it was common for people to dabble with different gods and different religions depending on their needs at the time.

People still do that's what Wicca and New Age beliefs and all that business is about.

One could pray to this god for good crops and another god for fertility.

When Anglo Saxon farmers asked who would look after their crops if the gods weren't real they told they had to look after them themselves.

When two cultures went to war, they imagined their gods also fighting up in the heavens. Even those devoted to a particular religion, such as the ancient Jews, didn't deny the existence of the other gods, only that the other gods were weaker. The OT is filled with examples.

In the early part of the Bible the assumption was that the gods of other nations did exist but were trivial things and latter they are depicted as being nothing but idols of carved wood and stone that were capable of doing nothing at all.

[Tonus]

In the early part of the Bible the assumption was that the gods of other nations did exist but were trivial things and latter they are depicted as being nothing but idols of carved wood and stone that were capable of doing nothing at all.

Curious, isn't it? The word of god isn't sure whether or not there were other gods and simply assumed their existence until later on. Maybe the truth is that those other gods did exist and by the time of the NT, Yahweh had killed them all. Now he could present himself to humanity as a kinder, gentler deity and tell people to be nice to one another.

[EvolutionKills]

Gotcha again.. but I believed in god when I was younger and never really read the bible. Then I finally did read the bible three times over and now I really dont believe theres a god...

You just ended up doing three revolutions of the wheel of atheist logic.

Wow, if you could project any harder, you'd be writing your name on the surface of the moon with your dick...

Atheism has always been around since the very first claims about gods were made, long before Yahweh was a twinkle in Abraham's eyes.

It goes back to the around the 17th century though at a push you can find a philosophy resembling it in the classical world in the first couple of centuries BC though they still technically believed in the gods. Just as something of interest though the ancient Jews initially didn't really believe in an afterlife, nothing particularly nice anyway you went into the ground that's where you stayed. So God was very much focused here in this life.

It goes back at least as long as there were 2 people, and when one of them said something about any god/s, and the second thought to themselves 'yeah, that sounds like bullshit...' It could have been as simple as this..



Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal by Zach Weiner

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2296

The Christians themselves were called "atheists" by their pagan critics.

It's because what they believed in didn't really resemble the proper gods people had been accustomed to.

Because they didn't believe in the gods, the same gods believed by everyone else. Remember that in the culture that Christianity arose, the Pax Romana was a built around culture acceptance and blending. This was rather easy vis-a-vis the Romans, who subsumed the pantheon of their Greek predecessors. Other contemporaries, such as the Egyptians, were respected for being just another way to worship the same gods and aspects, just with different rituals and names. This is why Thoth was seen as an avatar of Mercury, and vice verse; this is a very inclusive policy. This was entirely at odds with the Judaism of first century Judea and early proto-Christian sects who rejected all other gods, and the social inclusion that came with that assimilation.

Christianity was, AFAIK, the first religion ever to claim that not only was their god superior to all the others, that it was the only one up there and everyone else was just praying to idols and imaginary beings.

Well does this look like the kind of being the human mind would invent?

He looks a bit like human to me, the God of the Bible looks nothing like that he looks like nothing at all. You have the invented idols that resemble man and you have the real deal which is in order of magnitude different.

Jacob personally wrestling your God, try again.

Before Christianity, it was common for people to dabble with different gods and different religions depending on their needs at the time.

People still do that's what Wicca and New Age beliefs and all that business is about.

That's the nice thing about deists and pantheists, they believe in woo alright, but at least they're really inclusive about it. You're not going to see them helming anything like the Crusades or the Inquisition.

One could pray to this god for good crops and another god for fertility.

When Anglo Saxon farmers asked who would look after their crops if the gods weren't real they told they had to look after them themselves.

"they told they"

What?

When two cultures went to war, they imagined their gods also fighting up in the heavens. Even those devoted to a particular religion, such as the ancient Jews, didn't deny the existence of the other gods, only that the other gods were weaker. The OT is filled with examples.

In the early part of the Bible the assumption was that the gods of other nations did exist but were trivial things and latter they are depicted as being nothing but idols of carved wood and stone that were capable of doing nothing at all.

What's the first Commandment again?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me?


What was that bit in Genesis 1:26 again?

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"

If that isn't an admission to the existence and belief in other deities, I don't know what is. Of course this shouldn't surprise you if you knew anything about the polytheistic pagan origins of the Old Testament.

[Sword of Christ]

Curious, isn't it? The word of god isn't sure whether or not there were other gods and simply assumed their existence until later on.

The revelation developed over time and was assembled at a much later date in the first few centuries BC into a book, or a collection of scrolls at any rate. You'll find the general story and theological concepts flows together as one narrative though almost like it was one person writing it.

Maybe the truth is that those other gods did exist and by the time of the NT, Yahweh had killed them all.

It doesn't matter if some kind of beings that people historically believed to be as gods exist or not, the idea is that you don't worship these things. You don't worship other humans or your rulers and political leaders or anything else either. You centre your reverence on God alone and everything good is from God.

Now he could present himself to humanity as a kinder, gentler deity and tell people to be nice to one another.

He did.

[Tonus]

The revelation developed over time and was assembled at a much later date in the first few centuries BC into a book, or a collection of scrolls at any rate. You'll find the general story and theological concepts flows together as one narrative though almost like it was one person writing it.

Only if you read it with that bias. You can find differences in style and substance from the first three chapters in Genesis, to say nothing of the many contradictions throughout the texts, which helps some scholars to learn the motivations behind the stories and how the mythology was constructed.

And that's to say nothing of the complete change in the figure of god from the OT (where he is the "god of armies" and a strict and violent disciplinarian) to the NT (where he masks his expansion of "thoughtcrime" behind a benevolent and peaceful facade). There is no question that the Bible was "developed over time" and "assembled at a much later date." But that works to undermine the idea that it's the word of a divine creature who is intensely concerned with our fate and well-being.

[Sword of Christ]

Only if you read it with that bias. You can find differences in style and substance from the first three chapters in Genesis, to say nothing of the many contradictions throughout the texts, which helps some scholars to learn the motivations behind the stories and how the mythology was constructed.

That would be expected to some extent if you have different authors living at various different periods of history. It's not too bad considering though. It certainly has a good level of general coherence, though there was some selective editing in what they choose to keep and reject from the canon.

And that's to say nothing of the complete change in the figure of god from the OT (where he is the "god of armies" and a strict and violent disciplinarian) to the NT (where he masks his expansion of "thoughtcrime" behind a benevolent and peaceful facade).

Jews have a belief in much the same supreme God/power as Christians minus a couple of books about Jesus. You could even say Muslims believe in much the same God as the Bible. Personally I would say the addition of Jesus and the exclusion of Mohammed is the better revelation of the three but faith is going to vary. The core concept of God at least is a commonly shared strand of belief in all the Abrahamic faiths.

There is no question that the Bible was "developed over time" and "assembled at a much later date." But that works to undermine the idea that it's the word of a divine creature who is intensely concerned with our fate and well-being.

Well the revelation of God was through a chosen people who were living in real history and this took place over a lengthy period of time, so what else would you expect?

[DeistPaladin]

Maybe the truth is that those other gods did exist and by the time of the NT, Yahweh had killed them all.

"You big bullies will be sorry," swore little Yahweh as he blinked away suppressed tears while he swung by his stretched underwear from the school flagpole.

It was just another difficult day for the poor godling at Divine Elementary School.

"Ooooh, we're so scared," Mocked Ra.

His companions, Zeus, Ishtar, Marduk and Odin laughed as they admired their handiwork. The bigger gods who had all the cool names and more accomplished civilizations had long picked on little Yahweh, taking turns enslaving his people and stealing his Ambrosia money.

"I mean it," Yahweh cried as he shook his fist, trying to look fierce even has he was suspended helplessly above them, "one day my followers will take over your empires. We will hunt your people down, tear down your temples and persecute your followers. The streets will run red with their blood! Your followers will have to go into hiding, ferreted out by inquisitions and pogroms."

Raucous laughter was the only response for a moment.

"So tell me, little Yahweh," taunted Zeus, a god so rich he had a second cool name, known to the Romans as Jupiter, "how's anyone going to do all that in your name when your name sounds so goofy."

The thunderbolt god underscored his point with a nasal-sounding mockery of the Hebrew volcano-god's name, "Ya-way, ya-way, everyone be scared of ya-way."

"No way," retorted Marduk, prompting another round of laughter.

"I won't need a name!" vowed Yahweh, "because everyone will just know me as GOD! I'll be the only one! There will be no other left alive! By Me, I swear it!"

A pin could have been heard hitting the gold-paved streets as all the taunting gods suddenly fell silent beneath the Hebrew volcano god's dread glare. His threat seemed crazy at the time and yet every one of them was gripped in a sudden, awful premonition.

--------

"I told you, Torquemada, find them all," growled a grown up Yahweh into his executive phone as he sat behind an ornate desk that featured a plaque that read "God of Everything".

"Kill them all, but not before torturing them for so long they beg me to forgive them," the tycoon god ordered, adding before he slammed the phone on the receiver, "make sure their execution is slow, painful and burning."

"Sir," Michael trepidly addressed his boss, "Calvin's on the line, wanting to know what to do with the intellectuals who question Your authority or scriptures."

"The same things the Catholics are doing, you idiot," stormed the all powerful divine CEO, irritated by what he regarded as a stupid question, "my Me, do I have to do all the thinking around here?"

"Of course, I'm sorry sir." Michael quickly replied as he made a fast exit from Yahweh's office.

Yahweh gathered his papers that gave the orders for the forced conversion and massacre of native tribes of the Americas.

"Um, sir," peeped gentle Gabriel, "I just have a question; something I'm curious about."

Yahweh glared at his subordinate but said nothing, a sign understood to invite the angel to take the floor but to tread lightly.

"You are now the dominant god of all the earth," Gabriel began, "most of the largest of the world's religions, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Protestantism, Orthodox Christianity, are all subsidiaries of your theological empire. So why do you have them fighting each other?"

"The pathetic pagan gods fell to easily," fumed the divine CEO, "I have to have some reminder of my power. The cries of those who suffer in My name are needed to remind the worms on earth that I am Lord."

With that, Yahweh left for the executive board meeting, to discuss future plans with Himself, Jesus, and Himself, The Holy Spirit.

"Why is he so angry?" Uriel asked a shaken Gabriel.

"It's a sad story of abuse he endured as a child," Gabriel responded, "it seems no amount of power or praise is enough to heal those old wounds."

"So he's a big powerful guy plagued with insecurity and feelings of inadequacy that manifest in him lashing out all the time and no amount of power or praise will be sufficient because what he really needs is a hug?" speculated Uriel in a query.

"You first" quipped Gabriel to the nods of all the other angels.