Poll for Christians: Are the End Times imminent?

[themonkeyman]

@GC you are a douche I am sorry but as a Spiritual (Gnostic) Christian I have to refute your teachings.

Most all prophecy has been completed, very little left and most of that is the event itself. Will not be a 22nd century as we know time. You might be surprised to know what's happening in Israel at this time.

Can I ask how you know all prophecy has been completed? The problem here is that the Bible is very vague in its Prophesy’s. It’s the same as saying ‘Something will happen at somepoint in the future’ And saying that I am a prophet.

One thing that I find so strange is that Jesus was able to tell people about the end times but never once mentioned a visible sign e.g. (There will be people driving metal boxes / there will be lights upon many roads) or even (The year is x).

Failed prophecy. (Isaiah 7:14 – Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a young woman will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel’). I believe we call His name Jesus. So was Jesus the same person Isaiah was referring to?

Those looking forward to the end times are mostly those who believe in the rapture, if they knew what was really at hand they might not be so excited. I look forward to it because this world is in deterioration and it is not as pleasant place as it should be.

Actually the bible makes it clear that we will not go to Heaven! (Rev 21:2 – And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.) In many places God said we are not going to Heaven! Heck if heaven was achievable through simple death then why would Jesus hold back explaining its mysteries when prompted by the disciples.

How does one self fulfill the prophecy of Israel becoming a nation again after 2000 years. This has not happened to any other nation ever.

Like a previous poster mentioned it depends on your definition of the word nation. Take where I live, Northern Ireland – Catholics and Protestants hate each other and still murder one another but we live in a state of peace? So when some politician wants to call it a nation you have to work out what the actual people on the ground think! Just saying something doesn’t make it so. If I say you are a Douche – Is this correct?!

Really the largest percentage of terrible crime, actually all crime are committed by non Christians.

Ok wow boy lets be very careful making that call, Again where I am from the Catholic Church has been shook to its core by the revelations of Child Sex abuse this to me is Crime? Or are you trying to assert the OT versions of crimes? E.g. back then it was ok to rape a child!

I am not in the slightest happy with your assentation that all Christians do not commit crime! I download Illegal music but according to you it’s not a crime?!

Most criminals are not Christians before they go to prison, why do you think the churches have prison ministries. Do you think we want to save the saved. There as several polls but they are on the population after they are in prison. We are told in the NT that murderers, thieves, liars and ect. will not be in heaven. If one doesn't make it to heaven one is not a Christian.

So now you have raised the word ‘Most’ in a previous post you used the word ‘All’ please be concise as to the scope of your libel? I do not believe the Church wants to ‘Save the Saved’ as you put it however I do believe that the church should ‘Look at itself before looking at others’. The Church is badly tainted and people such as yourself prove this.

‘If one does not make it to heaven one is not a Christian’ ok let’s cut the bull shit here with all the ye olde English – Your statement can be worded another way as ‘Only Christians Go to Heaven’. So what happened with all Characters prior to the First Coming of Jesus?

Mr. Pastor, if you ever was a pastor, you should know what scripture says about who will be in heaven. Play your little denial games all you want because in the end that's all they are games.

Actually again I say the Bible makes it ‘CLEAR’ we will not goto heaven and will reside on this ‘EARTH’. Also if you want me to really hurt your little argument we can make a case for the fact that Satan was able to rebel against God. True he did not win but it shows that heaven is not all roses either. Considering there are angels who think it’s better to be in God’s wrath than it is to serve him?

Faith has no magic, with God it's full of grace, of coarse you can't begin to understand such love.

Actually I do not believe in the whole Pauline concept of ‘Grace’ I believe Jesus was here to lead us to God he never once said that his death was the thing that brought us to God. The statement is (John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.) If we read it as it should be read, It says that we must believe in Jesus – Now Jesus spoke many words of wisdom about our spiritual paths and the way to life I believe that by following God and learning more and more we will achieve enlightenment which will lead us to eternal life.

[Esquilax]

Care to explain or are you just making a blind statement.

Sure! When you say "if you don't get to heaven, you aren't a christian," you're begging the question something awful, because you've slipped in the conclusion (that there is a real heaven, and it's yours) into the definition of christianity.

Not only that, but you've also set up a dishonest series of condition wherein you can automatically discount any profession of christianity that doesn't help your case by puffing up your religion as home of the moral and good. To answer this argument about christians in prison, all you did was define criminal christians out of existence by fiat declaration. Aside from not actually being an argument, it's also just plain fallacious: why are people who attempt and fail at christianity not christians? Because you say so? Isn't faith in Jesus all you need to be saved?

Guess not, when you're in Godschild land, where everything is either in favor of his particular brand of christianity, or it must not really exist.

Faith has no magic, with God it's full of grace, of coarse you can't begin to understand such love.

So are you going to drink some poison to demonstrate what a true christian you are?

[Bob Kelso]

*Meanwhile*

I sure wish GC would address the questions I asked him about his bare assertion about prison statistics.

[Esquilax]

*Meanwhile*

I sure wish GC would address the questions I asked him about his bare assertion about prison statistics.

Me too. Especially since his position is just wrong on the face of it anyway, according to the methodology behind the statistics in the first place. It'd be nice to see him spin in place, defending the indefensible.

[Godscreated]

@GC you are a douche I am sorry but as a Spiritual (Gnostic) Christian I have to refute your teachings.

How is it that a person who states his Religious view: Haven't a clue, becomes a Spiritual Gnostic Christian, very interesting.

Most all prophecy has been completed, very little left and most of that is the event itself. Will not be a 22nd century as we know time. You might be surprised to know what's happening in Israel at this time.

Can I ask how you know all prophecy has been completed? The problem here is that the Bible is very vague in its Prophesy’s. It’s the same as saying ‘Something will happen at somepoint in the future’ And saying that I am a prophet.

I did not say all prophecy had been completed, I stated that most of the prophecies have been completed, most of what's left are about the very last days. Your correct that the end time prophecies are vague when it comes to time, however you have to remember Jesus said no one but the Father knows when He (Jesus) will return.

One thing that I find so strange is that Jesus was able to tell people about the end times but never once mentioned a visible sign e.g. (There will be people driving metal boxes / there will be lights upon many roads) or even (The year is x).

As I explained above Jesus said only the Father knows the time. Jesus said that the world would be like the days of Noah at the end. He said man would be lovers of himself, in other words selfish and if people believe man is less selfish today than 60 years ago the are deceiving themselves. God wasn't going to give the date at which Christ would return, the churches would be full of people who would be there out of fear and not because they wanted a relationship with Christ.

Failed prophecy. (Isaiah 7:14 – Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a young woman will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel’). I believe we call His name Jesus. So was Jesus the same person Isaiah was referring to?

Of coarse, who else would it be, the name is the clue for the Israelites, God with us. yes I know the name does not appear in the NT, however Jesus does, prophecy complete.

Those looking forward to the end times are mostly those who believe in the rapture, if they knew what was really at hand they might not be so excited. I look forward to it because this world is in deterioration and it is not as pleasant place as it should be.

Actually the bible makes it clear that we will not go to Heaven! (Rev 21:2 – And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.) In many places God said we are not going to Heaven! Heck if heaven was achievable through simple death then why would Jesus hold back explaining its mysteries when prompted by the disciples.

If your first sentence above is true then why Christ, why the writings of the NT. Christ's bride is the church, not a building, but the people who make up the church. Heaven is not achievable by death, some will be changed at Christ's return who are alive at the time. Faith in what Christ will do is why people will be in heaven. People today wouldn't be able to understand Christ's explanation of heaven, so why should He tell the disciples.

How does one self fulfill the prophecy of Israel becoming a nation again after 2000 years. This has not happened to any other nation ever.

Like a previous poster mentioned it depends on your definition of the word nation. Take where I live, Northern Ireland – Catholics and Protestants hate each other and still murder one another but we live in a state of peace? So when some politician wants to call it a nation you have to work out what the actual people on the ground think! Just saying something doesn’t make it so. If I say you are a Douche – Is this correct?!

You started out this post calling me a douche, so I think you must believe it, guess this question's answer is left to you. Now to the nation of Israel, it's the same area the Jews lived in over 2000 years ago, it is the same peoples, they can trace their linage back to the days long before Christ. If this isn't clear as to the meaning then you'll have to excuse me.

Really the largest percentage of terrible crime, actually all crime are committed by non Christians.

Ok wow boy lets be very careful making that call, Again where I am from the Catholic Church has been shook to its core by the revelations of Child Sex abuse this to me is Crime? Or are you trying to assert the OT versions of crimes? E.g. back then it was ok to rape a child!

It's never been okay to rape a child, what I wrote above did not come out like I meant it to. I meant the larger percent of people who commit crimes were non Christians. Do Christians commit crime, yes they do and to many of them do so but, they are not in the majority. As far as the priest who treat children that way, I personally do not believe they are Christians.

I am not in the slightest happy with your assentation that all Christians do not commit crime! I download Illegal music but according to you it’s not a crime?!

As I explained above I did not mean nor do I believe all crime is committed by non Christians, sorry I left you with that impression, it was unintentional. I do not down load illegal music nor will I copy a CD for someone else, that's stealing, breaking one of the Ten Commandments you know. I know very well what ti's like to have a work stolen.

Most criminals are not Christians before they go to prison, why do you think the churches have prison ministries. Do you think we want to save the saved. There as several polls but they are on the population after they are in prison. We are told in the NT that murderers, thieves, liars and ect. will not be in heaven. If one doesn't make it to heaven one is not a Christian.

So now you have raised the word ‘Most’ in a previous post you used the word ‘All’ please be concise as to the scope of your libel? I do not believe the Church wants to ‘Save the Saved’ as you put it however I do believe that the church should ‘Look at itself before looking at others’. The Church is badly tainted and people such as yourself prove this.

So what have I done to lead you to believe I'm badly tainted? I agree the church leaves a lot to be desired in some areas, we are people however and will make mistakes, why do you think we are indebted to Christ.

‘If one does not make it to heaven one is not a Christian’ ok let’s cut the bull shit here with all the ye olde English – Your statement can be worded another way as ‘Only Christians Go to Heaven’. So what happened with all Characters prior to the First Coming of Jesus?

I wasn't trying to use "olde English," but let me state it another way, only those who are seen as righteous to God will be in heaven, does that appease your ire. This applied to those before Christ also.

Mr. Pastor, if you ever was a pastor, you should know what scripture says about who will be in heaven. Play your little denial games all you want because in the end that's all they are games.

Actually again I say the Bible makes it ‘CLEAR’ we will not goto heaven and will reside on this ‘EARTH’. Also if you want me to really hurt your little argument we can make a case for the fact that Satan was able to rebel against God. True he did not win but it shows that heaven is not all roses either. Considering there are angels who think it’s better to be in God’s wrath than it is to serve him?

Then you need to show me some scripture that states that very thing. You really believe those angels still believe what they did was better than living with God for eternity, I doubt it. In the NT many of those fallen angels were afraid of Jesus and what He could do to them, they sound like they knew they screwed up. Sin, ie. evil blinds many, even many angels, is it any wonder that God hates sin so much.

Faith has no magic, with God it's full of grace, of coarse you can't begin to understand such love.

Actually I do not believe in the whole Pauline concept of ‘Grace’ I believe Jesus was here to lead us to God he never once said that his death was the thing that brought us to God.

I'm not sure why you think this when the gospels are full of the reason Christ left heaven to become a sacrifice for mankind. Christ made it clear His death would bring forgiveness to those believed in Him. He said no one comes unto the Father except through Him. Christ said all that come to Him are called by the Father. Jesus told Thomas that he believed because he saw, then He said blessed are those who will believe by faith, not having Thomas kind of proof. So yes Christ life leads us to God the Father and His death brings us acceptance by God the Father. Without the forgiveness we would not be found righteous and the righteous will live with God for eternity.

The statement is (John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.) If we read it as it should be read, It says that we must believe in Jesus – Now Jesus spoke many words of wisdom about our spiritual paths and the way to life I believe that by following God and learning more and more we will achieve enlightenment which will lead us to eternal life.

That's a great part of Christianity, trying to walk in Jesus footsteps. the verse says whosoever believes in Him, that must by necessity include His death and resurrection. We can't pick and choose the parts of Jesus life we want to believe, it's an all or nothing deal.

Thanks for the good conversation.

GC

[themonkeyman]

[qoute]
How is it that a person who states his Religious view: Haven't a clue, becomes a Spiritual Gnostic Christian, very interesting. [/quote]

Actually its not that hard to be a Spiritual Gnostic Christian, It actually makes more sense when you realise that the book you are reading as a load of Junk and that it was made up with Political means. I believe that Jesus came here to teach enlightenment and to find truth, This is why I do not believe in the Bible.

I did not say all prophecy had been completed, I stated that most of the prophecies have been completed, most of what's left are about the very last days. Your correct that the end time prophecies are vague when it comes to time, however you have to remember Jesus said no one but the Father knows when He (Jesus) will return.

But where is your proof that Prophecy has been completed. Please give me examples of these Prophecies that are coherent and are directly to the point. I do not expect you to give me Apologetics I just want an answer that is clear as day.

I do not believe that Jesus is God he always shown subordination to the Father, in fact the Holy Spirit is what made Jesus divine – Nothing else. Jesus himself was nothing special the Holy Spirit was the entity doing all the work. Sure Jesus himself on the mount of olives asked to forfeit being nailed to a cross.

As I explained above Jesus said only the Father knows the time. Jesus said that the world would be like the days of Noah at the end. He said man would be lovers of himself, in other words selfish and if people believe man is less selfish today than 60 years ago the are deceiving themselves. God wasn't going to give the date at which Christ would return, the churches would be full of people who would be there out of fear and not because they wanted a relationship with Christ.

How does Jesus know the world will be like the days of Noah why did he not give us a direct to the point scene? The way you make it sound is that it was all hearsay – How can Jesus know the end if he actually doesn’t know the time? Actually this Generation is not much different than any other. 500 Years ago people were selfish Kings cared only for themselves and left others out same with the Religious elite. Also where do you get the view that people are selfish? Is it through the news because if it is you should know that the news is not an indication of the state of the world.

Of coarse, who else would it be, the name is the clue for the Israelites, God with us. yes I know the name does not appear in the NT, however Jesus does, prophecy complete.

Ok so instead of explaining how Immanuel vs Jesus are the same you just assume it because you don’t think it could be anyone else. What about Matthias? Was he not the son of a Virgin?

If your first sentence above is true then why Christ, why the writings of the NT. Christ's bride is the church, not a building, but the people who make up the church. Heaven is not achievable by death, some will be changed at Christ's return who are alive at the time. Faith in what Christ will do is why people will be in heaven. People today wouldn't be able to understand Christ's explanation of heaven, so why should He tell the disciples.

Ok here is something you need help with – The BIBLE is a book made by men with a political gain heck it’s been added to and edited for so many years so can you say it’s the inspired word of God when it needs re-translated?

I don’t think the Disciples needed to know because heaven was not for them or for Humans so why would we need to know?

You started out this post calling me a douche, so I think you must believe it, guess this question's answer is left to you. Now to the nation of Israel, it's the same area the Jews lived in over 2000 years ago, it is the same peoples, they can trace their linage back to the days long before Christ. If this isn't clear as to the meaning then you'll have to excuse me.

Actually I highly doubt that anyone can trace the Lineage back that far – Considering several Libraries for example in Alexandria were burned down as well as others in Rome I am sure there would be problematic gaps in the sequence of History. E.g. ever notice that Jesus has two Geneologies.

So what have I done to lead you to believe I'm badly tainted? I agree the church leaves a lot to be desired in some areas, we are people however and will make mistakes, why do you think we are indebted to Christ.

What have you done? You are on here being Antagonistic when I was a Christian all I met was people like you who thought they were right and everyone else was wrong. Unless I conformed to your version of God I was condemned. Jesus both shown miracles and taught spiritualism. The fact that people now a day are told to have Blind faith when Jesus did not expect that from Thomas then it stands to reason that I should ask that you drink Poison to prove weather or not you are a true Christian.

I wasn't trying to use "olde English," but let me state it another way, only those who are seen as righteous to God will be in heaven, does that appease your ire. This applied to those before Christ also.

This makes more sense so stop misleading people with outlandish claims.

Then you need to show me some scripture that states that very thing. You really believe those angels still believe what they did was better than living with God for eternity, I doubt it. In the NT many of those fallen angels were afraid of Jesus and what He could do to them, they sound like they knew they screwed up. Sin, ie. evil blinds many, even many angels, is it any wonder that God hates sin so much.

Actually we cannot know why the Angels did what we did, We probably never will – The fact that God created Lucifer as perfect raises questions about whether Lucifer being evil was also Perfect in that God allowed his perfectness to become Imperfect? If God is perfect then were does imperfection come from.

I'm not sure why you think this when the gospels are full of the reason Christ left heaven to become a sacrifice for mankind. Christ made it clear His death would bring forgiveness to those believed in Him. He said no one comes unto the Father except through Him. Christ said all that come to Him are called by the Father. Jesus told Thomas that he believed because he saw, then He said blessed are those who will believe by faith, not having Thomas kind of proof. So yes Christ life leads us to God the Father and His death brings us acceptance by God the Father. Without the forgiveness we would not be found righteous and the righteous will live with God for eternity.

The Synoptic Gospels there is only 3 of them lets cut the crap here – You are basing all your faith on what other people tell you to belive. You really should read more and search for truth. Read Gnostic Works / Read Apocrypha there is more teaching in those than there is in the Faulty Bible. Because at least Gnostic works have been left alone for 2,000 years so when we are reading them we are reading with largely non tampered documents.

That's a great part of Christianity, trying to walk in Jesus footsteps. the verse says whosoever believes in Him, that must by necessity include His death and resurrection. We can't pick and choose the parts of Jesus life we want to believe, it's an all or nothing deal.

Actually I believe that God cannot die so Jesus did not die for our sins – I believe that someone else took his place and that he dwelled within the person until the last moment. Why else would he say ‘Father why have you forsaken me?’

One last comment: If the Kingdom of God is inside us then where is it?

[Chad32]

I hate to break it to you, but there are already a lot of people who are only in church because of fear. That's the whole point of hell! That's why religious people try to convert others when they're on death row, or on their death beds. If he wanted to make sure the only people in heaven were those who loved him, he wouldn't make the only alternative torture or complete destruction.

He doesn't want a personal relationship anyway. If he did, there wouldn't be any question about whether he existed. If he existed, he knows exactly what he needs to do to make people like me believe. I make no secret about it. If he was real, I'd love for him to come down and talk, and boy do we need a talk about all the horrible things they claim he's responsible for in the bible. I know I can be self centered, but I have never killed or tortured anyone for not making their lives revolve around me.

[themonkeyman]

I hate to break it to you, but there are already a lot of people who are only in church because of fear. That's the whole point of hell! That's why religious people try to convert others when they're on death row, or on their death beds. If he wanted to make sure the only people in heaven were those who loved him, he wouldn't make the only alternative torture or complete destruction.

He doesn't want a personal relationship anyway. If he did, there wouldn't be any question about whether he existed. If he existed, he knows exactly what he needs to do to make people like me believe. I make no secret about it. If he was real, I'd love for him to come down and talk, and boy do we need a talk about all the horrible things they claim he's responsible for in the bible. I know I can be self centered, but I have never killed or tortured anyone for not making their lives revolve around me.

Hey Chad,

You are completely correct - I am now a Gnostic Christian if you know anything about this is more a branch of Spirituality crossed with a little Theism and Knowledge.

I say a God does exist but I do not have evidence to substantiate that claim much like you have no evidence to substantiate that he does not exist. Each to their own.

I do find however that Mainstream Christianity is a poison, It sucks people in, Then people start getting caught up in church stuff mean while subliminally every sunday they are being told they deserve hell. So eventually when peoples deck of cards fall down they are too afraid to leave as the Human instinct is to defend itself which would then mean to stay in the Church.

I believe in Spiritualism that we are on our own walk with God and It is encouraged to seek enlightenment through knowledge. Don't settle for blind faith settle for what you feel is right!

[Chad32]

That sounds like a much more tolerable belief than evangelical christianity. I haven't really studied much in other belief systems. I mainly just talk about what I was brought up in, and some things I've heard over the years. I did consider just switching to another religion or spiritual belief, back when I was just starting to leave christianity, but decided to settle on atheism.

Maybe things exist that can't be detected with our senses, or scientific instruments, but there's no way to really know unless you can.

[Godscreated]

[quote='Chad32' pid='567406' dateline='1387635456']

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I hate to break it to you, but there are already a lot of people who are only in church because of fear. That's the whole point of hell! That's why religious people try to convert others when they're on death row, or on their death beds. If he wanted to make sure the only people in heaven were those who loved him, he wouldn't make the only alternative torture or complete destruction.

He doesn't want a personal relationship anyway. If he did, there wouldn't be any question about whether he existed. If he existed, he knows exactly what he needs to do to make people like me believe. I make no secret about it. If he was real, I'd love for him to come down and talk, and boy do we need a talk about all the horrible things they claim he's responsible for in the bible. I know I can be self centered, but I have never killed or tortured anyone for not making their lives revolve around me.

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Hey Chad,

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You are completely correct - I am now a Gnostic Christian if you know anything about this is more a branch of Spirituality crossed with a little Theism and Knowledge.

I say a God does exist but I do not have evidence to substantiate that claim much like you have no evidence to substantiate that he does not exist. Each to their own.

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