Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

[Aractus]

Now, if you value suffering, then one should not eat meat. Its pretty simple. What happened in the past is irrelevant. The fact that we might always cause some harm is irrelevant. The ethical principle is the same, if you value suffering then one should do ones best to stop causing suffering. Eating meat is cruel, and atheists completely undermine their philosophical integrity with these nonsensical appeals to nature.

I appreciate you posting on topic, and I'll explain why you're wrong.

Firstly, we need meat in our diets. Yes you can substitute it for other animal products like eggs and dairy, which is why dairy can play such an important part in a balanced diet, even a balanced vegetarian diet.

Unfortunately this is not possible with a vegan diet. And you've ignored the fact that ethically we need to be more concerned with our own well being than that of the food we eat.

To eat healthy with a vegan diet you have to plan every single meal, you literally have to spend your whole life planning your meals because if you don't then you won't be getting enough nutrients in your diet - iron, protein, omega-3, calcium, vitamins, etc. Most vegans are deficient in these. And for some people with allergies it will be literally impossible to eat a balanced healthy vegan diet.

Perhaps most importantly, it's actually impossible to get animal protein in a vegan diet. Yes you can get plant protein, but it's not the same. Animal-based protein in meat, milk, eggs, etc. contains all the required amino acids in the right amounts. Plant based protein does not. It's inferior quality protein as it doesn't meet our dietary needs, and plants contain less quantity of protein as well.

B12 isn't found in any non-processed plant-based foods. So a vegan will be deficient in it.

Vegan breast milk is deficient in important nutrients for babies; and feeding babies "vegan formula" can, and does, result in death! If breast milk is unavailable, babies need formula made from cow's milk.

Further reading:

It's a myth that we don't need animal based foods - or that all of them can be "easily" substituted.

[Bad Wolf]

Your last point, would we do otherwise? The current animal population would be allowed to live out the rest of their lives in a safe environment, and the land would be allowed to return to being forests etc that could support a biodiverse population of wild animals and plants.

I can deal with that amount of suffering to justify eating them. The world is a cruel place and a world without suffering is just a dream.

So does that mean you would allow all the farm animal species to go extinct? Is that the extent of your plan? Don't you think we as humans have some kind of responsibility to protect them as we put them in this situation in the first place?

[KichigaiNeko]

to the forum jg

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No I'm a herbivore and you are an omnivore. there is no species difference.

Ooooooo! Lunch!

[James2014]

Firstly, we need meat in our diets. ........ because if you don't then you won't be getting enough nutrients in your diet - iron, protein, omega-3, calcium, vitamins, etc. Most vegans are deficient in these.
.......
And for some people with allergies it will be literally impossible to eat a balanced healthy vegan diet.

Perhaps most importantly, it's actually impossible to get animal protein in a vegan diet. Yes you can get plant protein, but it's not the same. Animal-based protein in meat, milk, eggs, etc. contains all the required amino acids in the right amounts. Plant based protein does not. It's inferior quality protein as it doesn't meet our dietary needs, and plants contain less quantity of protein as well.

B12 isn't found in any non-processed plant-based foods. So a vegan will be deficient in it.

Vegan breast milk is deficient in important nutrients for babies; and feeding babies "vegan formula" can, and does, result in death! If breast milk is unavailable, babies need formula made from cow's milk.

Hi Aractus,

I very much disagree with this. Firstly two general points, then allergies, then I will address the specific nutritens you are concerned about.

Firstly, if veganism was significantly more unhealthy than an omniverous diet, then why do vegans and vegetarians have a longer life expectancy? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23836264

Secondly, many authorities disagree with your hypothesis including the NHS, which says "With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs."
In addition to the American Dietetic Association (which is the biggest professional body for nutritionists is the USA) who say, " appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

Allergies- I suppose the most common would be nuts, but then they could still eat other pulses, grains, soya or mock meats made using mycoprotein (which is made from fungus). Perhaps meat eating could be justified for those rare people if they were allergic to everything, ie to grains, soy,a beans, lentils, quinoa and mycoprotein, but then they should certainly call for more research into the development of foods that allows them to eat without having to kill animals.

Now to the specifics.

Iron- Vegans can acquire this from green leaf vegetables, beans, dried fruit, nuts in addition to fortified foods eg soya milk or breakfast cereal

omega-3 - Firstly this is not a vitamin, and there are no diseases associated with omega3 deficiency (although consumption may be protective against Cardiovascular disease so is eating lots of vegetables which vegans will inevitable have more of). Secondly there are vegan sources, specifically derived from the algae that fish normally eat as there source of omega 3. (lots of brands I use this one http://opti3omega.com/ ) Lastly the body does convert some plant omega fats into omega 3.

Protein - Yes some plants generally lack some essential amino acids, but the ones that are lacking in for example brown rice or other grains, are not the ones lacking in pulses (eg beans and lentils and nuts) So by eating both, ones protein requirements are met. Protein quality is not a significant issue, as the study shows a vegan diet still meets our protein requirements. Secondly some plants do have complete protein, eg soya and quinoa. And there there is the mock meats which are also complete, and are made using mycoprotein.

B12- Yes its, B12 is not found in plants. It is however made by some bacteria, and it is this source of B12 that is used in fortified foods (eg breakfast cereal soya milk, marmite etc.

Calcium - an be found in tofu, sesame seeds and tahini (hummus), pulses and dried fruit, in addition to fortified foods /supplements.

I think that covers everything? If you feel you are lacking in a vitamin, have a multivitamin. Oh yes, also milk for vegan babies, this can be deficient in nutrients if the mothers diet is deficient, most commonly because of a lack of B12 in raw vegans. If the mother has a well planned diet this is not a problem, as expressed by the American Dietetic Association statement I quoted above.

I suppose the other objection is that it is too hard. I certainly do more cooking from scratch than most, ready meals are mostly not vegan tho some are. But then eating ready meals aint too healthy anyhow. Like most people I cook a limited number of dishes regularly, maybe 15 to 20 things I know how to make quickly and easily. Here a site with some ideas. http://www.veganuary.com/inspiration/recipes

After the first month, once you know what is and isn't vegan it is really easy.

[KUSA]

Sure, I value suffering, but do animals I eat suffer?
And have you thought through your plan for when everyone stops eating meat? What happens to all of the animals? Don't tell me you're one of those idiot activists who go around the country setting animals free. We are losing all of our Water Voles because some idiot released American Mink from their farms.

Hi Bad Wolf,

I'm always amazed how meat eaters will suddenly devalue the cognitive abilities of animals when their meat eating is challenged. Here's an interesting study which details the effect. http://www2.psy.uq.edu.au/~uqbbast1/Bast...0press.pdf

Now, can animals suffer? Yes, animals have a range of cognitive abilities that are suggestive of consciousness. This includes associative/non-elemental learning and episodic-like memory, the ability to remember the "what, where and when" of an event. This suggest animals such as mice can create new representations of the world in novel combinations, binding together different sensory modalities in the same way that consciousness binds together our experiences. Animals can feel pain, and feel emotion in response to that pain that affects their ability to learn in much the same way as in humans.

They also show signs of being able to be depressed, for example when a rodent pup is forcibly separated from the mother. These animals show a reduced performance in a forced swim test, ie they stop trying to tread water and escape from a tank of water and instead enter a state of despair. Another way of inducing depression in animals is the chronic mild stress model that involves the exposure of animals to a series of mild and unpredictable stressors and results in long lasting changes of behavioural and neurological function that can be reversed with antidepressants, just like in humans.

The next question is do farmed animals undergo painful experiences? Yes they do, take for instance the cow, forced to be almost continuously pregnant to produce milk. After just a day, her young is forcibly removed. Overfed to produce as much milk as possible, the mechanical suckling cause infections in her udders. Most dairy cows only live a five or six years, when they have a natural life expectancy is around 25 years. Why do you think this is? They have a short brutal life, and when there exhausted bodies stop producing large amounts of milk they are killed.

And how are dairy cows and beef cows killed? Usually a capacitive bolt is used to induce a state of unconsciousness before having their throat slit. However studies show this is frequently not effective, with 8% of cattle(15% for young bulls) showing signs of consciousness http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...4007001544 The fact is eating meat is cruel, and causes horrible suffering. An even if you could ensure a pain free life, they are still conscious beings whose life would be brutally cut short.

Your last point, would we do otherwise? The current animal population would be allowed to live out the rest of their lives in a safe environment, and the land would be allowed to return to being forests etc that could support a biodiverse population of wild animals and plants.

How does anything that you said matter in any way? Answer: It doesn't. The fact that animals have cognitive abilities, feel pain, or what ever else doesn't matter at all.
Now I don't advocate unnecessary pain or unethical treatment of them but they are food and they must die. Once they are in my belly all the pain and suffering is gone and is replaced by joy and a feeling of fullness.
They joined the great recycling process that all life is a part of. All life on this planet dies and is recycled into something else. We just decide when they get recycled.

[James2014]

I can deal with that amount of suffering to justify eating them. The world is a cruel place and a world without suffering is just a dream.

So does that mean you would allow all the farm animal species to go extinct? Is that the extent of your plan? Don't you think we as humans have some kind of responsibility to protect them as we put them in this situation in the first place?

Yep the world is cruel. So what? It can also be more or less cruel depending on your actions. You just said you value suffering, should there be more or less suffering in the world? If you think you can justify the suffering of animals for you to eat them, then I would be interested to hear your argument.

If they can survive in the wild them I would certainly support them being let to live in the wild, unless of course they would harm biodiversity. If they were completely dependant on humans, then I would hope that we would pay some people to look after a limited number of animals in a similar way as to how people care for animals in animal sanctuaries. But no, the primary responsibility we have to them is to not put them through the awful suffering of factory farming.

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How does anything that you said matter in any way? Answer: It doesn't. The fact that animals have cognitive abilities, feel pain, or what ever else doesn't matter at all.
Now I don't advocate unnecessary pain or unethical treatment of them but they are food and they must die. Once they are in my belly all the pain and suffering is gone and is replaced by joy and a feeling of fullness.
They joined the great recycling process that all life is a part of. All life on this planet dies and is recycled into something else. We just decide when they get recycled.

Why does it matter? Well other than that I was responding to the argument that they could not suffer, I suppose because if they can suffer then you argument is contradictory and therefore must be false. You say you don't advocate unnecessary pain or unethical treatment, but surely the pleasure you get form meat eating is not necessary. I mean you can survive without it, right? Well then eating meat causes unnecessary pain and is unethical.

Yep, things die. But we can choose if they have a long peaceful life, or if they have a short brutal one. If one values suffering, then one should not eat met.

[KUSA]

Yep, things die. But we can choose if they have a long peaceful life, or if they have a short brutal one.

I don't understand what it matters. What does the length of their life matter? Are they going to figure out the answers to quantum physics or something if we let them live 5 more years? What is the big deal?

[James2014]

Yep, things die. But we can choose if they have a long peaceful life, or if they have a short brutal one.

I don't understand what it matters. What does the length of their life matter? Are they going to figure out the answers to quantum physics or something if we let them live 5 more years? What is the big deal?

Are you going to figure out the answers to quantum physics or something if you live for 5 more years? No. So does that mean your life has no value? Why then do you value your life and the lives of other people?

[LastPoet]

I am not really interested and am truly uncconvinced by vegan 'ethical' arguments. To me, its very simple: I respect your right to control and choose what you eat, I don't give a fuck about your opinion of me based on what I eat.

It seems to me that some (<--not all, some) vegans adopt a cult-like attitude with many analoguous traits to religious cults. Example: some vegans only accept their view and attack others that think differently. You want to eat non-meat products? Cool. You want to tell me what I should eat? Fuck you.

[KUSA]

I don't understand what it matters. What does the length of their life matter? Are they going to figure out the answers to quantum physics or something if we let them live 5 more years? What is the big deal?

Are you going to figure out the answers to quantum physics or something if you live for 5 more years? No. So does that mean your life has no value? Why then do you value your life and the lives of other people?

The fact is I might actually come up with something to benefit others. I have done it before and I probably will do it again. A chicken won't and you know it.