Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

[Bad Wolf]

Consciousness for me is awareness that results from the binding together of sensory inputs to create one single experience and cognitive representation of the world. For example, the nematode worm can learn to make simple associations, an odour or a light can be presented with an electric shock such that the animal can learn that the odour signals they are about to be shocked.

However, when multiple stimuli are paired together, for example an odour only signalling they are about to get shocked when it is also light, they cannot learn this. They cannot bind together different sensory modalities (in this case the ability to smell and the ability to detect light).

Rats and Mice on the other hand, can do this, they have episodic memory, the ability to remember the what where and when of events. Their experiences are bound together to allow them to create new representations of the world. Emotions are further bound up within this stream of awareness so that distress can result in a more "pessimistic" representation. Together this means that animals have consciousness and experience suffering.

Thats a rather simplistic view of consciousness. And a pretty low standard too .So by your standards, the nematode isn't conscious but the rats and mice are?

None of those are conscious because none of them are self aware. They don't understand themselves as an individual or have thoughts. They don't recognise themselves in mirrors. The only animals to do this, as far as i'm aware, are chimps, dolphins and elephants. Those animals are conscious and able to experience fear and distress by other ways than just instinct and conditioning.

[là bạn điên]

Ahh, no, he is well informed in this case, you are the REALLY presumptuously ignorant one. There are enormous numbers of different proteins. Proteins differ by more than just their ingredients. They also differ by their sizes and shapes. In fact every specie of animal and plants have some protein that is unique to that species. There is likely unique proteins difference even amongst members of same species. On the whole there are specific proteins as well as families of proteins that characterizes each taxonomic group at each level of life on earth. The reason why different DNA can lead to different species is precisely through the mechanism of generating unique, species specific proteins. Which proteins it actually is, not just what substance the proteins is made of, is also decisively important to how your body might deal with it after ingesting it. That's why there is such a thing as animal protein in dietary requirement. That's also why eating some things can get you sick, and other proteins can get you mad cow disease.

we need 8 amino acids that we cannot synthesise ourselves. The acid is the same no matter where it is sourced.

[James2014]

Ahh, no, he is well informed in this case, you are the REALLY presumptuously ignorant one. There are enormous numbers of different proteins. In fact every specie of animal and plants have some protein that is unique to that species. On the whole there are specific proteins as well as families of proteins that characterizes each taxonomic group of life on earth. Which proteins it actually is, not just what substance the proteins is made of, is decisively important to how your body might deal with it.

No, Arctus is not informed, he doesn't understand what "quality" in relation to dietary protein actually means. Fundamentally, the amino acids that make up animal protein are chemically identical to that in plant proteins, which is what la dan was referring to (though some plants lack certain amino acids, on mass all essential amino acids that can be found in an animal can be found in a plant)

You are right though the breakdown of proteins into their constituent amino acids does vary by protein type, but its not as simple as meats have a higher quality than plants, eg soya protein (PDCAAS=1.00) is of a higher quality than beef (PDCAAS=0.92). But all these values mean is if one were to have the recommended amount protein in ones diet, by what ratio does the amino acid profile differ from that which is considered an ideal amount. But it doesn't take into account the fact that no one will only eat one source of protein(so that in sum the ratio can be ideal), or that one could simply eat more of a lower quality protein source and therefore not be protein deficient, or that just because something is not an ideal ratio does not mean that ill health will follow.

Read about it

Arctus, was arguing that animal protein was of a fundamentality different type, not just the amino acids are in different configurations to form different proteins, differences which affect digestibility.

[Anomalocaris]

Uhh, no, again.

1. Not all proteins are broken down into amino acids during digestive processes before absorption. At least some proteins are absorbed entirely intact, others only partially broken down into segments larger than individual amino acids. It is true this is not well studied, but it clearly happens. Otherwise you can't get mad cow's disease by eating infected beef. So which protein matters.

2. Where the proteins come from strongly effects the digestability of the protein, so it strongly effects the actual absorption of proteins and their amino acids. Even those proteins that give the same nominal digestive end product effects you differently in term how much amino acids you get in relation to how much calories and how much other nutrient you take up. sSo where the protein come from, in itself, also matters.

[wolf39us]

Don't go veggie, that's a huge missedsteak

[Anomalocaris]

Don't go veggie, that's a huge missedsteak

Yes, and eggs are better in the mouth than on the face.

[Aractus]

He actually thinks animal proteins are made of different substance than vegetable proteins he REALLY is that uneducated.

You clearly have no idea what proteins are do you? Some people think that cats can't see colour - of course they can, but just like any other animal (humans included) they can't see colour at night. However they can see in less light than we can because they have a rod-to-cone ratio of 25:1 (ours is about 4:1). In addition to this they have a layer at the back of the eye called the tapetum lucidum (built using zinc protein) that behave as a mirror and effectively double their low light perception - so they may as well have 50 rods for every cone. Cats do not produce the zinc protein, and as far as science can tell it's not found anywhere in their DNA to be potentially constructed. But they're completely reliant upon it and a lack of zinc in their diets can lead to serious health problems including cancer - not just the loss of night vision.

You can see here that PETA says to feed your cat or dog a Vegan diet.

Now let's look at what professionals say.

• Why Your Cat Needs Animal-Based Protein
  
  The protein in animal tissue has what is known as a complete amino acid profile. Amino acids are the building blocks of protein. Proteins derived from plants don't contain all the amino acids critical for the health of an obligate carnivore.
  
  You have the physiological ability to turn plant proteins into the missing pieces needed for a complete amino acid profile. Your cat's body isn't equipped to do this.
  
  One of the amino acids missing in plants is taurine. Taurine is found in animal muscle meat, especially the heart and liver. Taurine deficiency causes serious health problems in kitties, including blindness and heart disease. Feeding a cat a taurine-deficient vegetarian diet, then supplementing with a taurine pill is similar, in my book, to eating iceberg lettuce as your sole food source and taking a synthetic multivitamin. It doesn't balance out.
  
  

There you go.

• If you REALLY want to feed your cat a vegan diet:
  
  Some people want to make their pets vegan because of religious reasons or personal beliefs. My advice to you would be to consider not having a pet. It is unnatural to take a carnivore and ask them to eat a vegan diet.
  
  I’ve focused on cats here. It is possible to have a dog be a vegetarian. (There is actually a prescription vegetarian food.) This is because dogs need 2-3 times less protein than cats do. I still don’t recommend making your dog a vegetarian or vegan, but if someone is adamant then I’ll recommend a prescription vegetarian dog food. But there is no safe way to feed a cat a vegan diet.
  
  

People can have a perfectly balanced vegetarian diet - but this is not true of vegan diets. Vegan diets are dangerous, they lack essential nutrients that we need - not just proteins, but other things as well. Dairy is one of the easiest ways so supplement a vegetarian diet to get these required nutrients - what you are advocating, and I have already proven, is a diet that if followed without buying any processed foods is deficient in a number of areas, particularly B12 - and a B12 deficiency can permanently harm babies just like smoking and drinking while pregnant.

Also, it is unsafe to give a Baby vegan formula. It can result in DEATH!! If breast milk is unavailable - Babies have to be given formula made from cow's milk. You must acknowledge this point.

[James2014]

Thats a rather simplistic view of consciousness. And a pretty low standard too .So by your standards, the nematode isn't conscious but the rats and mice are?

None of those are conscious because none of them are self aware. They don't understand themselves as an individual or have thoughts. They don't recognise themselves in mirrors. The only animals to do this, as far as i'm aware, are chimps, dolphins and elephants. Those animals are conscious and able to experience fear and distress by other ways than just instinct and conditioning.

Yes there is no reason to assume nematodes are conscious.

If one has binding of sensory experience, and is able to form new presentations of the world from multiple sensory inputs, then how can one not be conscious? I really don't see how self awareness is relevant, all one needs to be conscious is to be aware of external events, not to have conception of what one's self is and then be able to make a comparison between what oneself is and what one perceives. That conception of oneself, and that comparison are additional to being able to be conscious of the external world, therefore one can be conscious without being self aware.

[bennyboy]

Thats a rather simplistic view of consciousness. And a pretty low standard too .So by your standards, the nematode isn't conscious but the rats and mice are?

None of those are conscious because none of them are self aware. They don't understand themselves as an individual or have thoughts. They don't recognise themselves in mirrors. The only animals to do this, as far as i'm aware, are chimps, dolphins and elephants. Those animals are conscious and able to experience fear and distress by other ways than just instinct and conditioning.

Equivocation ftw? I don't think so.

The moral issues don't have anything to do with an animal looking in the mirror and recognizing that it is seeing what it looks like to others. They have to do with whether they experience pain and other kinds of suffering, and whether we have a right to inflict suffering on them.

An infant can't recognize itself in a mirror. Is it okay for me to kill and eat babies, then, so long as I've purchased them fairly and they don't suffer when they die?

[Aractus]

No, Arctus is not informed, he doesn't understand what "quality" in relation to dietary protein actually means. Fundamentally, the amino acids that make up animal protein are chemically identical to that in plant proteins, which is what la dan was referring to (though some plants lack certain amino acids, on mass all essential amino acids that can be found in an animal can be found in a plant)

What is it with you vegans and your fucking half-truths? We can break down proteins. But plant protein is incomplete, that's why you have to plan very carefully to get all the required amino acids to rebuild all the proteins that you need - and part of that of course is nuts. People with nut allergies (and this allergy is becoming more common), didn't I already explain this, literally can not get all the required amino acids without supplements from a vegan diet. Vegetarians can, so long as they can either eat dairy or eggs or both.