Free will?

[bennyboy]

Those certainly seem like good cases of when you've exercised a great deal of will. But notice we are no wiser how you do it. It might seem like situations like those when you must make a strong effort to resist the instinctual tendency are what we most mean by will. Some would say it is more an instance of your invoking your free won't, than free will. I won't slow down to ease the aching in my lungs. I won't lie down in the snow for just a second. But whether it is a positive action or the prevention of an action, in both cases some intention is formed and acted upon. Who does the choosing and how exactly do they put these actions (or non-actions) into play? There is something squiggly about these concepts and the way we're mashing them up. Lots of unspoken assumptions. I find it a pretty murky topic.

I guess in terms of brain structure, you'd probably say that the cerebral cortex has evolved some ability to override the more primitive parts of the brain. So memories and ideas can mediate behavior, EVEN WHEN they don't cause an immediate emotional motivation (adrenaline, endorphins, etc.).

[shep]

i've been a pre-determinist for a few months now but after conversing with my atheist brother recently he has jolted me into rethinking my position - he is a hierarchical combatibalist btw.

[MJ the Skeptical]

I would say we have free will to the extent choice can go for any given time. But literally no free will in the grand scale of the cosmos.

[Jovanian Teapot]

Some day we may unravel the human brain sufficiently to know just how "free" we are to act and how much of what we do is selected by our subconscious.

You can't get scientifically get any freewill from deterministic physical natural processes as you would be everything your brain is and does and we can explain it all. Though the idea is that science can't account for everything therefore you can have freewill just fine. Therefore atheism must be mistaken, or you must at any rate believe to be mistaken in order to believe that you have freewill and a rational mind.

Ok, my man(woman?). You are confused. so confused that you confused me. First, the obvious mistake: Atheism is not a system of belief.
"you must at any rate believe to be mistaken in order to believe that you have free will and a rational mind."
What? This seems like you are just rambling about nothing.
Elaborate, please

[Wyrd of Gawd]

You can't get scientifically get any freewill from deterministic physical natural processes as you would be everything your brain is and does and we can explain it all. Though the idea is that science can't account for everything therefore you can have freewill just fine. Therefore atheism must be mistaken, or you must at any rate believe to be mistaken in order to believe that you have freewill and a rational mind.

Hey Sword, could you do me a solid and actually research what you're talking about sufficient to understand it before you comment, rather than just deciding you know more about it than the people who have studied it?

That's a great example of not having free will. If Sword does as commanded then he doesn't have free will because he isn't able to resist doing what you commanded him to do. So he won't have any free will as far as him being able to resist your orders.

[Tonus]

What? This seems like you are just rambling about nothing.

This seems to be his posting style in his most recent visit here. He made more of an effort his first couple of times, as I recall. Then he hopped on the crazy train this last time.

[heathendegenerate]

Take a simpletons perspective.. not all that mechanism crap.. if you buy a gun, you can shoot it.. or you don't. okay? we have as many options as our little brains can handle.

[Jovanian Teapot]

Hey Sword, could you do me a solid and actually research what you're talking about sufficient to understand it before you comment, rather than just deciding you know more about it than the people who have studied it?

That's a great example of not having free will. If Sword does as commanded then he doesn't have free will because he isn't able to resist doing what you commanded him to do. So he won't have any free will as far as him being able to resist your orders.

I disagree completely. Sword doing what he is told does not in any way show a lack of free will. In this situation, he(she?) has two choices: to research, or not to research. Now, assuming that complying with a suggestion indicates a lack of free will is ridiculous. If i said "No sword, do not do your own research", then, based on your idea "If Sword does as commanded then he doesnt have free will", Sword would be left with exactly ZERO ways that he could exert his free will. Please explain if i have misunderstood.

I define free will as follows: The ability to act in a way that is inconsistent with one's life experiences and/or genetic dispositions. Defined this way, i don't see how free will can even exist. So, i agree with you that free will is not a factor in decision making. I just dont agree with the reasoning

[bennyboy]

I define free will as follows: The ability to act in a way that is inconsistent with one's life experiences and/or genetic dispositions. Defined this way, i don't see how free will can even exist. So, i agree with you that free will is not a factor in decision making. I just dont agree with the reasoning

Your definition is goofy. Of course nobody would act against their own nature. Even if you develop the ability to fast when you're hungry or whatever, that is STILL consistent with your experiences and/or genetic predispositions.

But what if you have many courses of action available which are in accordance with your nature? What if you're on holiday, for example, and you wake up and say, "Hmmmm, what should I do today?" You are definitely going to follow your nature, and you definitely have free will. The question is whether this is "actual" free will or just a word for a symbolic abstraction of deterministic behavior.

The problem is, EVERYTHING about humanity happens on an abstracted layer of "reality." Your mother is "really" a collection of chemicals interacting in deterministic ways. But MOMMY is a myth-- a symbolic embodiment of compassion, kindness. . . practically of providence. Love is "really" a hormonal cascade, determined by the genetic chances of evolution interacting with your experiences. But LOVE is the feeling of walking on clouds, of finding that other half of the jigsaw puzzle that will fill the holes in your life.

So if you are going to count out free-will, you have to count out all the other abstractions, too, or be inconsistent. Remind yourself that Mom is just Mom because that's what female animals are like, and that your love isn't really anything special, because it's ingrained into all humns. OR you can realize that we are abstract beings living in an abstract world, and that there's a disconnect between the reality of being human and the reality of physical determinism.

[tor]

We don't have free will and if people will understand it world will be better place to live in.