The redneck strike again.

[Confused Ape]

Thanks for the information. All the articles about the drawbacks of factory farming concentrate on how things are today. The reasons why it got started in the first place aren't gone into with any great detail.

Which is unfortunate, because it's generally good to know how one got into a mess, if one hopes to get out of it eh.

I think the people writing the articles tend to assume that everyone knows how it got started in the US. Information is somewhat vague when it comes to Britain as well. Hopefully, we humans might learn not to keep putting all our eggs in one basket.

Actually..Big Ag was once a monolithic block. Most of the players you find now are pieces of that monolith that were forcibly broken apart from the 40's onward for a variety of reasons.

I'm not having much luck finding out the details here. Googling Big Ag has led me to who is regarded as Big Ag today rather than pre-1940's US.

CropLife International

Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Big Ag

The dangers of GM are the dangers of any tech, as are the benefits. Risk v. Reward.

I suspect that the real dangers are forgetting that Nature is unpredictable.

I'm an optimist. I figure we'll get it wrong in some pretty dramatic ways here and there..but overall..like rural electrification - we'll enrich our lives with GMos.

I doubt that many US farmers feel that their lives have been enriched by Monsanto's superweeds. How many more disasters will there be before the companies doing GMos get it right? Meanwhile, Monsanto is trying something else which won't be news to you -

MonsantoIs Going Organic in a Quest for the Perfect Veggie

Agriculture giant Monsanto may be best known for genetic modification—like creating corn that resists the effects of Monsanto’s weed killer Roundup. But when it comes to fruits and vegetables you buy in the store, genetic modification is off the menu. Monsanto thinks no one will buy Frankenfoods, so the company is tweaking its efforts—continuing to map the genetic basis of a plant’s desirable traits but using that data to breed new custom-designed strains the way agronomists have for millennia.

Maybe it's a case of better the devil you know because there's more chance of suspecting how it might turn round and bite you.

Ag will just move with the weather - like it has always done.

It's interesting seeing what ideas there are for the future. In vitro meat production is still in the experimental stage so it's going to take a long time before it feeds the world. Others think that edible insects are the way to go - insect farming is starting to take off and you can already find recipes online. Then there's vertical farming for fruit and vegetables but this, too, is still in the experimental stage. Vertical farming would be great because it can be done anywhere and pesticides won't be needed unless insects are farmed in the same building and they manage to get out and into the fruit and veg. (I don't think that would make a good plot for an exciting disaster movie, though. )

Ape.
That is funny how you criticize me for being some sort of redneck
that is doing so much damage to the veg. cause and then you
yourself slowly slowly get along the same path.
I notice that in the last few pages as you dig more and more in
the damages that the meat policy is doing you get more and more
aware of this problem as per OP issue.
What can i say?
Welcome aboard girl.

I know how much damage the modern meat policy is doing - why do you think I'm a vegetarian? I already knew about the antibiotics, mad cow disease and other stuff and have been looking for reputable sources of information to link to in discussions. The difference between you and me is that I don't talk about intuitional science and reincarnation in my posts.

Modern crop growing policy is also causing damage to the environment. because of pesticides used on fruit and vegetables. There's other environmental issues to take into consideration too such as are rain forests being cut down to produce palm oil for veggie burgers.

[Little Rik]

"There is no scientific evidence it will detox the body. The issue of fasting to cleanse the body has no biological basis because the body is real good at that by itself," says Fernstrom. "The liver is a natural detox center; the lungs, the colon, the kidneys, [the lymph glands] and the skin get rid of toxins."

How can you be so ignorant boy!!!
It is obvious that our organs can get rid of so much crap
but it also obvious that there is a limit to what these organs
can do.
When that limit is overtaken the problems start and it want
take a big brain to understand that in most people this limit
is overtaken all the time considering so many bad habits like
smoking, drinking, drug usage, overeating, over indulging
in so many bad habits plus all modern adulteration.
If you would be correct then our hospitals and other
institutions would be almost empty but empty are not
so you point doesn't make any sense.
Try something else next time but not this sort of crap.

[Confused Ape]

It is obvious that our organs can get rid of so much crap
but it also obvious that there is a limit to what these organs
can do.

From Science Based Pharmacy - The Detox Delusion

After all, the local naturopath offers detoxification protocols, so there must be something to it, right?

Wrong. This is a case of a legitimate medical term being turned into a marketing strategy. In the setting of real medicine, detoxification means treatments for dangerous levels of drugs, alcohol, or poisons, like heavy metals. Detoxification treatments are medical procedures that are not casually selected from a shelf or from a menu of alternative health treatments. They’re provided in hospitals when there are life-threatening issues.

When that limit is overtaken the problems start and it want
take a big brain to understand that in most people this limit
is overtaken all the time considering so many bad habits like
smoking, drinking, drug usage, overeating, over indulging
in so many bad habits plus all modern adulteration.

The idea that we are being poisoned from within is not a new one; it’s a historical concept rooted in ideas of sympathetic magic. Called “autointoxication,” it drew a link between our bowels and other health problems. Clean out the bowels, went the theory, and you could cure any illness. Science led us to discard autointoxication by the 1900s as we gained a better understanding of anatomy, physiology, and the true cause of disease. Despite the science, however, the idea persists among the alternative practitioners, who don’t base their treatments on scientific evidence. Today’s version of autointoxication argues that some combination of food additives, gluten, salt, meat, prescription drugs, smog, vaccine ingredients, GMOs, and perhaps last night’s bottle of wine are causing a buildup of “toxins” in the body. But what is the actual “toxin” causing harm? It’s nothing more than a meaningless term that sounds scientific enough to be plausible.

If you would be correct then our hospitals and other
institutions would be almost empty but empty are not

From a health site run by Columbia University - Is it really true that fasting can help purge the body of toxins?

To help understand why, a lot can be learned from taking a moment to investigate the body's own detoxification process. The human body is quite ingenious. It was designed to have two major pathways to eliminate harmful substances. First are the immune tissues of the intestinal tract, and second are the enzymes of the liver. Did you know that the intestinal tract generates about 70 percent of our antibodies? These little heroes attach themselves to many of the bacteria, toxins, and viruses that enter our bodies, inactivate them, and prevent many from being absorbed, helping to protect us against infection and illness.

Harmful substances that slip by the intestinal detoxification system are delivered to the liver. This second pathway has two detoxification phases: (1) various transformations occur preventing the perilous substances from creating harm to our bodies; (2) another series of reactions occur, causing these substances to become less toxic. They are then excreted from the body in urine and feces.

So, how does fasting influence the body's detoxification processes? Our nutritional status affects the body's ability to manufacture antibodies and enzymes, and the liver's ability to detoxify. Fasting deprives the body of the raw materials — sufficient calories, proteins, and certain vitamins and minerals — needed to make antibodies and enzymes. Eating keeps our immune system strong.

So, fasting does not boost the body's disposal system, or cleanse your body in a healthy way. Some people say they feel great during or after a fast. They might feel great because they believe fasting is healthy or has a significant spiritual meaning, or they might feel great because severe calorie restriction (like fasting) can produce feelings of happiness or even euphoria. In either case, fasting isn't actually doing a body good. What's the long-term solution for cleansing your body, then? Eating a sensible diet with plenty of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, lean protein, and unsaturated fats. Throw in a shower or bath every so often, and you'll be clean as a whistle.

Maybe the hospitals are still full because people have been misled by pseudoscience. "It doesn't matter how much junk food I eat because fasting every so often or taking a health shop detox remedy will get rid of all the poisons."

[Rampant.A.I.]

I've heard air fasting by submerging yourself in water for at least half an hour and inhaling deeply does wonders to purge the lungs of toxins.

You can take advantage of the same technique with your electronic devices to clear them of computer viruses.

How do you not know this, Ricketto?

[Little Rik]

The difference between you and me is that I don't talk about intuitional science and reincarnation in my posts.

1) If you would have paid more attention to my previous posts you
would have noticed that i usually talk about these issues when
someone ask me for.
2) To me is ok not just because i try to push my point into someone
brain but because by talking about different issues the thread does
not become boring.
3) To stick to the same subject for long time doesn't make sense.
We are physical-mental-spiritual and even our body is made up with
so many different parts and organs.
if you keep on talking about your liver all the time and forget all other
parts and organs you would not make justice to all the rest but
most of all you wouldn't solve any problem as the solution lie only
by taking in consideration the whole.

Modern crop growing policy is also causing damage to the environment. because of pesticides used on fruit and vegetables. There's other environmental issues to take into consideration too such as are rain forests being cut down to produce palm oil for veggie burgers.

Considering that those who eat veggie burgers are maybe 0,001%
of the total population that want have a dramatic impact on the
climate change.
What have a dramatic impact is the meat policy which most of the
people believe in but if you believe in the contrary then is about
time to consider seriously about you priorities in life.

---

I've heard air fasting by submerging yourself in water for at least half an hour and inhaling deeply does wonders to purge the lungs of toxins.
You can take advantage of the same technique with your electronic devices to clear them of computer viruses. How do you not know this, Ricketto?

Thanks very much for your great tips but i need some help.
You see Rampo i am very slow to understand how to practice
this type of healing so would you mind to show me how you do.
I can keep your head under the water for half an hour and when
the time is up i pat you on the shoulder so you can reemerge.
Can you help?

---

Maybe the hospitals are still full because people have been misled by pseudoscience. "It doesn't matter how much junk food I eat because fasting every so often or taking a health shop detox remedy will get rid of all the poisons."

Ape, Ape, why you do this to me?
I thought that you were a bit smarter and not that confused
but now i start to doubt.
Why you are so naive to believe everything you read around?
Look at your link.......it say.........Eating a sensible diet with plenty of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, lean protein, and unsaturated fats. Throw in a shower or bath every so often, and you'll be clean as a whistle.................so first it say that lean proteins are good and then say that
unsaturated fats are also good.
The problem Ape is that even lean protein contain saturated fat so how
the hell this gay who write this garbage can think that you can avoid saturated fat by eating lean meat which come with saturated fat?
For Christ sake Ape think about what you believe in before you decide
this or that. hock:

[Confused Ape]

We are physical-mental-spiritual and even our body is made up with
so many different parts and organs.
if you keep on talking about your liver all the time and forget all other
parts and organs you would not make justice to all the rest but
most of all you wouldn't solve any problem as the solution lie only
by taking in consideration the whole.

There's nothing wrong with taking a spiritual path but that's no reason to become divorced from reality.

1: Your intuitional science is conflicting with archaeological evidence about our ancestors eating meat 2.8 million years ago. Humans in some parts of the world have lived very successfully on a very heavy meat diet due to the scarcity of edible vegetation. My husband's Vitamin B12 is lower than it should be and it's happened since he became a vegetarian. Our doctor told him to eat chicken or fish two or three times a week but he's chosen to use supplements instead. This suggests something about the diet which humans evolved to eat. And no, we didn't evolve to eat factory farmed animals or even meat free junk food.

2: By all means fast every so often if it makes you feel good but don't expect this to be a magic wand for all the illnesses which put people in hospital. It isn't going to do anything for people who live on junk food. The only thing that works is eating a healthy, balanced diet so the body can get on with doing the job that it evolved to do.

What have a dramatic impact is the meat policy which most of the
people believe in but if you believe in the contrary then is about
time to consider seriously about you priorities in life.

So you want everyone to become vegetarians but don't give a damn about dirty palm oil which is destroying rain forests and driving some species of animals to extinction? Many vegans and vegetarians are concerned about this because palm oil is used in a lot of different products besides food.

Palm Oil, Orangutan Extinction, and Vegan Butter Supporting Neither

Ask any vegan or vegetarian, and they’ll tell you: momentary pleasure makes a poor moral compass. Killing in the absence of need, for no better reason than transitory taste sensations, seems to many of us like an incredibly bad idea. People choose to follow a plant-based diet for numerous reasons, but one of the most commonly cited is compassion towards fellow creatures.

If we are going to commit to conscious eating, and embrace a diet that rejects killing for no better reason than random human whim, we need to pedal that bike all the way into the garage and reconsider our willingness to support the palm oil industry. Palm oil production causes tremendous death and destruction, and deserves no place at a compassionate table.

Facts About palm oil and rainforests

Worldwide demand for palm oil has increased sharply over the last few years. With 54 million tons in 2011, it is the most widely produced vegetable oil worldwide. It has the highest yield of any oil crop and is the cheapest vegetable oil to produce and refine.

Its properties make it highly versatile in the food and chemical industries. It has a high melting point, making it smooth and easy to spread. Palm oil is contained in thousands of supermarket products.

More than 90 percent of the palm oil produced is used to manufacture food products, cosmetics, detergents and candles.

How does palm oil destroy the rainforests?

Since oil palms need a rainforest climate – consistently high humidity and temperatures – and a lot of land, plantations are often established at the expense of rainforests. About 90 percent (2011) of the world’s palm oil is currently being produced in Malaysia and Indonesia. Indonesia’s oil palm plantations alone already cover nine million hectares, an area the size of the state of Maine. 26 million hectares are projected for 2025.

According to a report published in 2007 by the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), palm oil plantations are currently the leading cause of rainforest destruction in Malaysia and Indonesia. Today, rainforest area the equivalent of 300 soccer fields is being destroyed every hour.

This gives rise to numerous problems for the climate, environment, and people living in the forest:

- CO2 emissions – In preparing rainforest land for a palm oil plantation, the most valuable trees are cut down and removed first. What remains is cleared by burning. If the forest was on peatland – as is the case in much of Indonesia – the land is drained. Peatlands store vast quantities of carbon, and the conversion of a single hectare of Indonesian peatland rainforest releases up to 6,000 tons of CO2. Tropical deforestation is currently responsible for about 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions, making it a significant contributor to climate change (see 4. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC).

- Loss of biodiversity – Indonesia's rainforests and peatlands are among the world's most species-rich environments and home to numerous endangered plants and animals, such as orangutans, Sumatran tigers and Bornean rhinos. The destruction of natural habitats deprives the animals of the basis for their existence, causing an irreversible loss of biological diversity. Orangutans are particularly vulnerable because they are dependent on large contiguous forest areas. In search of food, they often get lost in the plantations, where they are regarded as pests. According to the Centre for Orangutan Protection (COP), at least 1,500 orangutans were clubbed to death by palm oil plantation workers in 2006 alone. According to the UN, there is a risk that no wild orangutans will remain outside of protected areas by 2020.

There's been a lot of deforestation involved in coconut and banana plantations, too. So, what are you doing towards sustainable plant food production in readiness for the day when people are forced to eat less meat according to various predictions? After all, does the world need another food policy which is just as destructive as the current meat policy?

[Rampant.A.I.]

---

The difference between you and me is that I don't talk about intuitional science and reincarnation in my posts.

1) If you would have paid more attention to my previous posts you
would have noticed that i usually talk about these issues when
someone ask me for.
2) To me is ok not just because i try to push my point into someone
brain but because by talking about different issues the thread does
not become boring.
3) To stick to the same subject for long time doesn't make sense.
We are physical-mental-spiritual and even our body is made up with
so many different parts and organs.
if you keep on talking about your liver all the time and forget all other
parts and organs you would not make justice to all the rest but
most of all you wouldn't solve any problem as the solution lie only
by taking in consideration the whole.

Modern crop growing policy is also causing damage to the environment. because of pesticides used on fruit and vegetables. There's other environmental issues to take into consideration too such as are rain forests being cut down to produce palm oil for veggie burgers.

Considering that those who eat veggie burgers are maybe 0,001%
of the total population that want have a dramatic impact on the
climate change.
What have a dramatic impact is the meat policy which most of the
people believe in but if you believe in the contrary then is about
time to consider seriously about you priorities in life.

---

I've heard air fasting by submerging yourself in water for at least half an hour and inhaling deeply does wonders to purge the lungs of toxins.
You can take advantage of the same technique with your electronic devices to clear them of computer viruses. How do you not know this, Ricketto?

Thanks very much for your great tips but i need some help.
You see Rampo i am very slow to understand how to practice
this type of healing so would you mind to show me how you do.
I can keep your head under the water for half an hour and when
the time is up i pat you on the shoulder so you can reemerge.
Can you help?

---

Maybe the hospitals are still full because people have been misled by pseudoscience. "It doesn't matter how much junk food I eat because fasting every so often or taking a health shop detox remedy will get rid of all the poisons."

Ape, Ape, why you do this to me?
I thought that you were a bit smarter and not that confused
but now i start to doubt.
Why you are so naive to believe everything you read around?
Look at your link.......it say.........Eating a sensible diet with plenty of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, lean protein, and unsaturated fats. Throw in a shower or bath every so often, and you'll be clean as a whistle.................so first it say that lean proteins are good and then say that
unsaturated fats are also good.
The problem Ape is that even lean protein contain saturated fat so how
the hell this gay who write this garbage can think that you can avoid saturated fat by eating lean meat which come with saturated fat?
For Christ sake Ape think about what you believe in before you decide
this or that. hock:

---

PS: I'm not taking a bath with you.

[Little Rik]

1: Your intuitional science is conflicting with archaeological evidence about our ancestors eating meat 2.8 million years ago. Humans in some parts of the world have lived very successfully on a very heavy meat diet due to the scarcity of edible vegetation.

You keep on coming up with so called evidence that evidence is not.
1) I already said that in time of natural disaster like previous ice ages
many people had to start eating meat as the normal food was not
there or was very scarce so you can't say that i do not believe that in
the past people never eat meat.
I also said that as far as the human body is mainly alkaline and
made for a non-carnivorous diet it is not possible that man is omnivore by nature.
If he was then he could deal with what real omnivore animals can
deal like saturated fats, cholesterol and toxins but he can't therefore
he is not omnivore by nature.
2) Archaeological finding do not mean that man is omnivore by nature.
Archaeological finding have also find stones used to crack nuts.
What this means?
It means that in some part of the planet people eat this in other part
eat that but there is no evidence that those who eat meat did eat
meat for a long span of time.
It could be that they eat meat until the normal food was available
once again after some natural disaster or other unknown event.
Again you keep on jumping to conclusion too fast.

My husband's Vitamin B12 is lower than it should be and it's happened since he became a vegetarian. Our doctor told him to eat chicken or fish two or three times a week but he's chosen to use supplements instead. This suggests something about the diet which humans evolved to eat. And no, we didn't evolve to eat factory farmed animals or even meat free junk food.

There are so many theories about b12.
I came across a funny one.
It say that after so long that man eat unwashed food or
meat our body got used to this and the body created
this b12 in order to deal with this situation.
Now all of a sudden that people eat washed food the body
feel that something is missing just in the case of a junkie
left without drugs.
This of course does not apply to people eating meat.
Many doctors on the other hand say that the lack of b12 can
cause severe and irreversible damage.
Most of my veg. friend don't take any b12 supplement and
they are in excellent health.
Some of them are old and have been veg. for long long time.
Could be that if you half is lower in b12 does not mean that
he really need supplement but if you think that he need go ahead
and give supplement.
One day the expert will tell us who is right and who is wrong.
At this stage is all in the air so i wouldn't speculate or coming
up with certainties.

2: By all means fast every so often if it makes you feel good but don't expect this to be a magic wand for all the illnesses which put people in hospital. It isn't going to do anything for people who live on junk food. The only thing that works is eating a healthy, balanced diet so the body can get on with doing the job that it evolved to do.

Any help you can get to improve your health is a bonus.
Fasting has been used to heal many diseases for long time.
If you don't believe then don't worry about it.

So you want everyone to become vegetarians but don't give a damn about dirty palm oil which is destroying rain forests and driving some species of animals to extinction? Many vegans and vegetarians are concerned about this because palm oil is used in a lot of different products besides food.

You keep on jumping to conclusion very quickly (as usual).
I didn't say that we shouldn't worry about palm oil.
I instead said that considering that veg burgers are eaten by
very few people then it wan't cause big changes.
That does not mean that it want cause any change at all.

[Confused Ape]

It means that in some part of the planet people eat this in other part
eat that but there is no evidence that those who eat meat did eat
meat for a long span of time.
It could be that they eat meat until the normal food was available

You still haven't explained how people living in the Artic survived for generations on a diet which was mostly meat because there's very little plant food available there. You also haven't explained why the Inuit's health deteriorated when they stopped eating wild animal meat and went over to factory farmed meat.

Most of my veg. friend don't take any b12 supplement and
they are in excellent health.
Some of them are old and have been veg. for long long time.

Sources of Vitamin B12 - Vegan Health Org

Fortified Foods

There are many vegan foods fortified with B12. They include non-dairy milks, meat substitutes, breakfast cereals, and one type of nutritional yeast.

Brewer's and Nutritional Yeasts

Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 unless they are fortified with it.

If your friends are eating enough food which has been fortified with Vitamin B12 they won't need to take supplements. Vegans who don't eat enough fortified food are asking for trouble if they don't take a supplement. From the Vegan Health site again - Vitamin B12 - Are You Getting It?

You keep on jumping to conclusion very quickly (as usual).
I didn't say that we shouldn't worry about palm oil.
I instead said that considering that veg burgers are eaten by
very few people then it wan't cause big changes.
That does not mean that it want cause any change at all.

Vegetarianism By Country

Millions of people around the world are vegetarians and the number is increasing in many countries. Palm oil isn't just used in meat substitutes, either, because many food products labelled suitable for vegetarians are eaten by the rest of the population as well.

Rise Of The Semi Vegetarian In The UK

The UK market for meat-free products such as tofu, sausages, burgers, and imitation chicken fillets was most recently put at £786.5m a year, up 7.7% from five years earlier. A further 10.3% increase is expected over the next five years, according to market research company Key Note.

But this boom in meat-free products is no longer being driven solely by vegetarians.

Just 6% (3.8m) of the UK population identified themselves as "mainly" vegetarian (eating fish but not meat) in 2011, and 3% (1.9m) as completely vegetarian.

So who is fuelling the rise?

Su Taylor from the Vegetarian Society says it's "people with differing motivations", which could be health, environment, animal welfare or just "trying something different".

They include "meat reducers" - people who may have bought in to campaigns such as "Meat Free Mondays" and are trying to reduce their carbon footprint.

IT consultant Alex Evans is one such follower, and says he now has "more meat-free days than not".

"The great thing with the campaign is that it only asks people to cut out meat one day a week, so I'm free to eat meat on other days.

"By cutting down on meat I now eat more vegetables as main meals, whereas before I thought vegetables could only be used as sides."

The UK's brand leader Quorn has a 56% share of the meat-free market, and is now marketing its food in a different way to a different set of consumers - omnivores.

Quorn is made from mycoprotein, a member of the fungi family grown and mixed with egg whites to create textured imitation meats.

Chris Wragg, the marketing director at Quorn, says its research shows 69% of UK households are "open to" a meat-free meal.

Quorn is now aiming at "healthy eaters", those looking to lower their cholesterol, and weight watchers seeking to reduce their fat and calorie intake.

"Historically our audience has been a vegetarian one that eats meat-free, and adds Quorn in to their diet, but increasingly we are seeing weight managers or slimmers, and healthy eaters."

Quorn contains palm oil and, even though the manufacturers say they use sustainable sources, we can only hope we aren't being lied to. Then there's all the non-food products which everyone, including many vegans and vegetarians, are using which is pushing up the demand for palm oil.

You can't turn cornfields into palm oil plantations so something has to be done about the palm oil problem now. If we wait until half the world is vegetarian there won't be any rainforests left. Animals living there will either be extinct or only found in zoos. There's another factor to consider as well.

Deforestation and climate change

Carbon storehouses
Mature forests store enormous quantities of carbon, both in the trees and vegetation itself and within the soil in the form of decaying plant matter. Forests in areas such as the Congo and the Amazon represent some of the world's largest carbon stores on land.

But when forests are logged or burnt, that carbon is released into the atmosphere, increasing the amount of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases and accelerating the rate of climate change. So much carbon is released that they contribute up to one-fifth of global man-made emissions, more than the world's entire transport sector.

Deforestation has such a massive effect on climate change that Indonesia and Brazil are now the third and fourth largest emitters of carbon dioxide on the planet. This dubious honour comes not from industrial or transport emissions, but from deforestation - up to 75 per cent of Brazil's emissions come solely from deforestation - with the majority coming from clearing and burning areas of the Amazon rainforest.

Indonesia is the world's biggest producer of palm oil. So I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm looking at facts. Turning vegetarian to save a cow isn't helping animal welfare if it kills an orangutan instead. We need to be equally concerned about food animals and wild animals as well as carbon.

[Cyberman]

If your friends are eating enough food which has been fortified with Vitamin B12 they won't need to take supplements. Vegans who don't eat enough fortified food are asking for trouble if they don't take a supplement.

Perfect answer: Marmite!