Why oh Why

[Godscreated]

What we "deserve" is an eternity separated from Yahweh, according to the bible. Having a horrible week, then rising again to rule over everything is not a sacrifice. That's the equivalent of my cutting off my hand, then sewing it back together, and becoming king of the world for doing so. I've lost nothing substantial, besides having it cut off while I'm fully conscious and not using pain killers. No innocent person should ever stand in for the guilty, and no guilty person should ever be punished beyond their crime. infinite punishment for finite crime is as disproportionate as it gets. Not that christians agree on what hell is, any more than anything else in the book.

Surely you are not equating cutting off a hand and having it sewed back on to death and resurrection. That's like saying an ant is equal to humans.

GC

[Chad32]

What we "deserve" is an eternity separated from Yahweh, according to the bible. Having a horrible week, then rising again to rule over everything is not a sacrifice. That's the equivalent of my cutting off my hand, then sewing it back together, and becoming king of the world for doing so. I've lost nothing substantial, besides having it cut off while I'm fully conscious and not using pain killers. No innocent person should ever stand in for the guilty, and no guilty person should ever be punished beyond their crime. infinite punishment for finite crime is as disproportionate as it gets. Not that christians agree on what hell is, any more than anything else in the book.

Surely you are not equating cutting off a hand and having it sewed back on to death and resurrection. That's like saying an ant is equal to humans.

GC

Yes, that's what I'm equating. I'm saying there was no real sacrifice. He didn't stay dead. He came back, returned to heaven, and is either ruling at the right hand of Yahweh, or is just a part of Yahweh. He was born, got to live longer than most people get to in this world, and had a really shitty week, then got to either return to where he was before he was born, or got an even better existence than his time on earth.

It was a publicity stunt that had little to no effect in the grand scheme of eternity.

Sacrificing yourself, to yourself, to save people from something you created, because of a curse you put on them, does not impress me.

[truthBtold]

Surely you are not equating cutting off a hand and having it sewed back on to death and resurrection. That's like saying an ant is equal to humans.

GC

Yes, that's what I'm equating. I'm saying there was no real sacrifice. He didn't stay dead. He came back, returned to heaven, and is either ruling at the right hand of Yahweh, or is just a part of Yahweh. He was born, got to live longer than most people get to in this world, and had a really shitty weak, then got to either return to where he was before he was born, or got an even better existence than his time on earth.

It was a publicity stunt that had little to no effect in the grand scheme of eternity.

Was he even a good carpenter?? I heard thats how he really got the holes in his hands..

[Faith No More]

Understanding Christian theology makes sense if you think about it as an abusive relationship. I mean, just look at Lek's response...

If we stay in him we'll be saved. The troubles in the world are a consequence of our sins not his hate for us.

You see, just like other abuse victims, they've convinced themselves that all of the problems are their fault, and the only way to fix things is to stay with the abuser. God sets you up to fail then forces you to beg for forgiveness, and Christians have convinced themselves that the consequences for this inevitable failure are entirely deserved if you turn your back on him.

So, it helps to understand Christian mythology if you think of god as a much more vicious version of Ike Turner.

[Chad32]

Understanding Christian theology makes sense if you think about it as an abusive relationship. I mean, just look at Lek's response...

If we stay in him we'll be saved. The troubles in the world are a consequence of our sins not his hate for us.

You see, just like other abuse victims, they've convinced themselves that all of the problems are their fault, and the only way to fix things is to stay with the abuser. God sets you up to fail then forces you to beg for forgiveness, and Christians have convinced themselves that the consequences for this inevitable failure are entirely deserved if you turn your back on him.

So, it helps to understand Christian mythology if you think of god as a much more vicious version of Ike Turner.

I agree. If anyone really has a relationship with Yahweh, it's not a healthy one.

[Foxaèr]

If God loves us then why let satan fuck with us?

For the same reason that men love to watch other men be tortured, especially when they are given a reason, no matter how absurd, to abhor the person being tortured. For the same reason that otherwise loving theists are gleeful about the prospect of being in heaven and looking down on their enemies as they burn in hell. Fallible, psychopathic men created a fallible, psychopathic god in their image.

[Drich]

Hey,
After joining this form nearly a year ago I have read many comments and viewpoints of Christianity and the belief in God. Unfortunately these arguments from both sides are rather weak.

Question 1)

Mine won’t be any better but it does put a new perspective on things.
1) We are told Jesus IS God
2) Jesus Died on the Cross for Our Sins
3) Jesus too our Punishment
So the questions I have to raise here are.
1) Why is Jesus not eternally in hell

He did not sin

2) If Jesus took our sins upon the cross the is it not true that he is being killed fairly as he was a Sinner?

He took God's wrath in our stead, be was not an actual sinner.

3) What makes God not a Sinner if he took our sins?

The fact that He committed no sin make Christ not a sinner.

4) What makes Jesus not a Sinner if he took our sins?

When the Jews sacrificed the sin offerings in OT days, The Sin offering/Sheep did not take the sin of the sinner upon them.

The wage of sin was death. Or rather the punishment of sin is death. Christ died for the sins of the world, thus paying man's debt. However Christ being God resurected himself, and overcame death.

Understand your bible said Jesus became sin and the punishment of sin is death and many say that Jesus led a blameless life and then died on the cross. So did he take our sins ‘After’ Death because if it was ‘Before’ death then his death is ultimately justified under OT Law.

The payment of sin was made at the death and trauma He experienced on the cross.

Further what part of Jesus dying and rising in 3 days then going to heaven shows me that he took my sins.

Jesus did not take everyone's sins, He took the sins of those who would place them on the alter in which He died.

All that shows is that even Jesus was a wimp in a Hell that ‘He?’ or his Father created and couldent stand it more than 3 days.

How do you know He went to Hell? The bible does not say where He went when He died. Just that He was in the Grave for 3 days.

Understand if someone gives their life for me – They don’t come back to life?

What if someone jumped infront of a bullet meant for you, would it mean the automatically died and not come back? There are stories of guys jumping on gernades to save their squad and living to tell the tale.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2...Cross.html

This is what Christ did. Death from this life is not death, it is your birth into eternity. When Christ died here He woke up to an eternal state. For Him it was as God the Son for us we are but living souls. As God He decided to come back, for us it is a one way trip.

If someone goes to prison for me they go to prison for my punishment they don’t leave early?

The punishment for sin is not imprisionment. It is death.

If my punishment is eternal then surely Jesus should be in an eternal hell unless punishment is circa 3 days.

what makes you think your punishment is forever?

Question 2)
Satan – Also known as the Acuser / Belzebub / Morning Star etc…
We are told that God and Satan are not Co-Equal.

Jesus said we are to come to God like Children?

Out of context. "we" does not refer to the world. "We" refers to those who seek God.

Well what Father leaves his child alone to be tormented to be lied to and tricked by a ‘Stranger’.

Do you have kids? Have you ever been one? ?? What 'Father' does not take his children to school?

Now, at your school, were all the children there your brothers and sisters? Did your 'father' father all the other kids? Like wise not everyone here in this world is a child of God. Most aren't.

Would you not send your children to public school because you did not father all the other children?

Satan gets a bad rep however when we look at what Jesus and God expect from its its wholy unfair. We are to be Grateful to a God who Died for Us on the cross.

It is only 'unfair' if you can identify with him.

Yet for the last 2,000 years he has been physically silent on this earth letting satan ‘the Stranger’ cloud our minds and judgements about God and right and wrong!

Not even close. God is active in the lives of his followers. God is silent to those who do not know Him.

This would mean that All Athiests on this forum are not accountable to God as what father would let a bad man take his kids off him.

Christ had a slightly different view.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

Now don’t get me started on the bull shit about even if God did as we asked we would not believe in him – That is a complete and utter lie. If I asked God to physically fight me like he did with Jacob I think I would believe in his existence.

Then what? Belief is only a key. Keys are worthless unless you use them. If your not willing to do what God asks of you now, it will not change when you have the 'key.'

"He who is responsiable with little will be responsiable with much. He who can not be trusted with little can not be trusted with much."

If God loves us then why let satan fuck with us?

Because when one Tru[/quote]ly loves his child, He knows if He spares the rod, He will Spoil the child.

Meaning if the Child is completely protected from his actions, and not made to experience the consenquences then the child will be allowed to 'go bad, spoil, sour, made rotten.'

[Faith No More]

Do you have kids? Have you ever been one? What 'Father' does not take his children to school?

Now, at your school, were all the children there your brothers and sisters? Did your 'father' father all the other kids? Like wise not everyone here in this world is a child of God. Most aren't.

Would you not send your children to public school because you did not father all the other children?

You never were good at analogies, but this one is exceptionally poor.

What father takes his children to school knowing for certain that they will be molested by a stranger?

[Mudhammam]

You would think the world has enough real problems in it for people to deal with that they wouldn't have to go make shit up like "sin" or "eternal punishment" or "atonement through belief in human sacrifice for mankind." It's a pathetically sad commentary on how little the gap actually is between chimpanzees and Homo sapiens.

[Drich]

Do you have kids? Have you ever been one? What 'Father' does not take his children to school?

Now, at your school, were all the children there your brothers and sisters? Did your 'father' father all the other kids? Like wise not everyone here in this world is a child of God. Most aren't.

Would you not send your children to public school because you did not father all the other children?

You never were good at analogies, but this one is exceptionally poor.

What father takes his children to school knowing for certain that they will be molested by a stranger?

Catholic Father do..

In reality The anaology describes the interaction with 'other children.' Not outside influences. If the Devil had free reign over us our lives would look alot like Job's life. As it is our lives are only 'molested' by our interations with each other. To which i point again to the parable of the Wheat and Chaff, for God's reasoning as to why both are allowed to grow up together.