queston for Atheist

[Fromper]

Interesting. I'm no expert on this stuff, but as I said, I recently read Hawking's "A Brief History of Time". As I understand what I read there, there is no "edge" to the universe, but I thought the curvature just meant that if you could travel faster than light in one direction, you'd eventually end up back where you started. Also, if you were traveling faster than light, then you'd be traveling 4 dimensions, not just 3, so you could arrive back where you started before you actually left.

But I didn't realize that there would be more out there than we're capable of observing due to light speed limitations.

thats right.

They don't know yet. They are still looking. They aint even sure that those galaxies so far away aint our own milky way 10 billion years ago.

remember they know less than 10% of the stuff out there. Everything we know is a human perceptive only.

Ok, the statement I bolded kinda blows my mind. I had assumed we couldn't look back at our own galaxy at an earlier time, because the rate of expansion of the universe has to be slower than light, so the light from our own galaxy 10 billion years ago would have reached our current point in space before we did.

But the idea that the curvature of the universe would allow us to look back at our own galaxy from the opposite direction of the one we took to get here during universal expansion hadn't occurred to me. But if that were the case, wouldn't that make the universe smaller than expected, since we'd be seeing the same part of space when looking really far away in two opposite directions?

[Tonus]

Why bother with the rest of it if you were going to answer your own question in the very next breath?

Maybe spidey suspects that his answers are crap and wanted a second opinion

He's selling himself short; the question was crap as well.

I find it amusing when you get someone who is clearly approaching the issue from the wrong end and doesn't realize that his own answer to his question really does answer the question. "How could the big bang have occurred? There must be an uncaused first cause!" Well, if you insist... there's an uncaused first cause. Let's just call it "the big bang" and press our "That Was Easy" button!

[Alex K]

thats right.

They don't know yet. They are still looking. They aint even sure that those galaxies so far away aint our own milky way 10 billion years ago.

remember they know less than 10% of the stuff out there. Everything we know is a human perceptive only.

Ok, the statement I bolded kinda blows my mind. I had assumed we couldn't look back at our own galaxy at an earlier time, because the rate of expansion of the universe has to be slower than light, so the light from our own galaxy 10 billion years ago would have reached our current point in space before we did.

But the idea that the curvature of the universe would allow us to look back at our own galaxy from the opposite direction of the one we took to get here during universal expansion hadn't occurred to me. But if that were the case, wouldn't that make the universe smaller than expected, since we'd be seeing the same part of space when looking really far away in two opposite directions?

It is a cool thought, and an absolutely valid idea and question, but it has been addressed and is ruled out observationally. The current bound on the radius of such a recurrence is several times the visible horizon. If

[MJ the Skeptical]

How do you explain the start of the big bang? there has to be and unCaused first cause. The beginning of the big bang in a split second threw in the existence of time,laws,matter,physics, everything are universe lives with today. If the sun was to far away from the earth we would freeze to death, If we were to close the sun we would burn up.If the oxygen level wasn't perfect we would either suffocate or have fires everywhere. DNA is extremely complex everything is designed on a razors edge, life demands for a brilliant designer its the only logical way. And in the explosion of the big bang it wasn't just random chaos everything was guided into place, what did you guys think everything just happen to be perfect?? I don't have near enough faith to be an Atheist.

Your first problem was addressing atheists instead of scientists. You can be an Atheist and reject the Big Bang, and you can be a Scientist and reject the Big Bang. I honestly don't want to reply further after your conflation of the two things. You obviously have a lot of Scientific research to do on Cosmology and I don't want to interfere with your studies on that as I can not give you a remedial lesson in Cosmology on a forum.

[Jackalope]

I had assumed we couldn't look back at our own galaxy at an earlier time, because the rate of expansion of the universe has to be slower than light

This does not appear to be the case - beyond about 4.5Gpc distance, the expansion rate exceeds the speed of light. (4.5Gpc is ~1.47e10 light years)

But the idea that the curvature of the universe would allow us to look back at our own galaxy from the opposite direction of the one we took to get here during universal expansion hadn't occurred to me. But if that were the case, wouldn't that make the universe smaller than expected, since we'd be seeing the same part of space when looking really far away in two opposite directions?

As Alex pointed out, this possibility has been observationally ruled out. The lower possible bound on any curvature of spacetime is too large.

[truthBtold]

Read some threads before posting the same shit that has been posted already.. and READ A FUCKING BOOK... then a person wont be soft as baby shit.

[Alex K]

Maybe spidey suspects that his answers are crap and wanted a second opinion

He's selling himself short; the question was crap as well.

I find it amusing when you get someone who is clearly approaching the issue from the wrong end and doesn't realize that his own answer to his question really does answer the question. "How could the big bang have occurred? There must be an uncaused first cause!" Well, if you insist... there's an uncaused first cause. Let's just call it "the big bang" and press our "That Was Easy" button!

Yeah, the unawareness is astonishing. But then, such a glaring omission would be astonishing if spidey had come up with the argument himself and thought about it, but as it stands I've seen the identical speech so many times that my suspicion is that is just mindlessly regurgitated from what some pastor or creationist website offers as a talking point. So there's hope that we get spidey to think a bit.
So I'll give him the benefit of doubt, after all they say in the bible, ye who hath not a log in their own eyes shall cast the other cheek... or something.

---

I might add something to clear up a common misconception: one can have a spatially cyclical universe without visible internal curvature. This is a bit counterintuitive because we can only imagine such spaces curving back onto themselves, but that is a misleading intuition. The prime candidate of a spatially flat peridodic space is the three-torus.

[RobbyPants]

How do you explain the start of the big bang? there has to be and unCaused first cause.

So, what was the first cause? God?

What caused God? God is eternal/timeless?

How do you know? How do you know the universe isn't timeless?


In order for your first cause argument to work, you need to make three assumptions:
1) God exists, despite being nonfalsifiable.
2) God has the ability to create universes.
3) God is timeless/eternal.

If I don't grant you those three assumptions, then you haven't proven God. Let me show you another way:

We'll assume there is a special particle called fleems. Fleems are undetectable, they can create universes, and they're eternal. Therefore, given that everything that exists has a cause and the universe exists, I have successfully proven fleems. Why don't you believe in fleems, Spidey?

I don't have near enough faith to be an Atheist.

You're over-defining the term. Atheism means you don't believe in any gods. All that other stuff you mentioned in the OP was a different topic. I'd consider myself an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in any gods due to a lack of evidence. It is, by very definition, not a faith-based stance.

[Senshi]

How do you explain the start of the big bang? there has to be and unCaused first cause. The beginning of the big bang in a split second threw in the existence of time,laws,matter,physics, everything are universe lives with today. If the sun was to far away from the earth we would freeze to death, If we were to close the sun we would burn up.If the oxygen level wasn't perfect we would either suffocate or have fires everywhere. DNA is extremely complex everything is designed on a razors edge, life demands for a brilliant designer its the only logical way. And in the explosion of the big bang it wasn't just random chaos everything was guided into place, what did you guys think everything just happen to be perfect?? I don't have near enough faith to be an Atheist.

How do you explain the start of the big bang? there has to be and unCaused first cause.

Really? Well, you see it is much simpler than that. Truth is, matter pops in and out of existence all the time, read about the quantum foam. If we represent empty space with 0, in the quantum foam particles of matter and antimatter appear simultaneously, so if one particle has a charge of 1 and the other -1 we have 1 + (-1) which = 0 which is what we started with. Inexorably this is an oversimplification and I just committed a sin in the name of Paul Dirac. But, this should get you on your way to understanding the "uncaused first cause" whatever that even means.

If the sun was to far away from the earth we would freeze to death, If we were to close the sun we would burn up.

Think about what you just said, would we even exist? Its called the Goldilocks zone, and I don't know if I'm the only one wondering what's your point here?

DNA is extremely complex everything is designed on a razors edge, life demands for a brilliant designer its the only logical way.

You must know nothing about DNA! You must also not know that it mutates regularly yielding teratogenic and mutagenic effects which are extremely malignant. If god created DNA than god is evil! Humans are better at molecular biology than god because they're working on something way more stable than DNA, its called XNA, and its much more promising. There is nothing razor edge or brilliant about anything on this planet, it is all the work of natural selection. It just seems that way to you because you don't know enough about it. No person educated in science would see this world as intelligently designed. It is without question the product of chaos.

[Bob Kelso]

How do you explain the start of the big bang?

Scientists are still working on it.

there has to be and unCaused first cause. The beginning of the big bang in a split second threw in the existence of time,laws,matter,physics, everything are universe lives with today.

If the sun was to far away from the earth we would freeze to death, If we were to close the sun we would burn up.If the oxygen level wasn't perfect we would either suffocate or have fires everywhere.

Your point?

DNA is extremely complex everything is designedon a razors edge, life demands for a brilliant designer its the only logical way. And in the explosion of the big bang it wasn't just random chaos everything was guided into place, what did you guys think everything just happen to be perfect??

Care to back up your assertions with evidence?

I don't have near enough faith to be an Atheist.

You claim veracity for the unverifiable, deny science, and then have the audacity to poke fun?

How interesting.


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