Problem of Divine Freedom

[fr0d0]

So what are you saying preexists the creator? I've already said that absolute control is nonsense and why.

Again, how do you know enough to judge? If in a species of ants a malignant disease affected all but 10 and killing the rest saved the species... would you kill all but the 10 to save them? And would your action be just?

No you didn't say why! Now that we got this far and both agree god doesn't have absolute control let's ask the next question. Is god all knowing?

A disease is a bad analogy, because everyone is still affected by the disease 'sin' so the cleansing efforts went to waste. And, finally if god knows the future 1. why would he wait and ask them to repent again and again if he knew they wouldn't 2. why would god not kill off the first few ants who spread the disease before he would have to do something like a great flood?

You didn't answer the question.

Yes I did say why. I said that "absolute" as you're saying it means that God can do the illogical.

That doesn't limit God. God is all powerful. And all knowing.

That's how he knows more than you do and is able to judge where you aren't.

2. In this analogy God let the humans have time to change their ways. It wasn't too late to solve the problem. And again, you're assuming that you know better than a being that know everything.

1. There always has to be the choice. You, knowing that your choice to do bad was self destructive, choose not to change. Justice still has to be served.

[Senshi]

No you didn't say why! Now that we got this far and both agree god doesn't have absolute control let's ask the next question. Is god all knowing?

A disease is a bad analogy, because everyone is still affected by the disease 'sin' so the cleansing efforts went to waste. And, finally if god knows the future 1. why would he wait and ask them to repent again and again if he knew they wouldn't 2. why would god not kill off the first few ants who spread the disease before he would have to do something like a great flood?

You didn't answer the question.

Yes I did say why. I said that "absolute" as you're saying it means that God can do the illogical.

That doesn't limit God. God is all powerful. And all knowing.

That's how he knows more than you do and is able to judge where you aren't.

2. In this analogy God let the humans have time to change their ways. It wasn't too late to solve the problem. And again, you're assuming that you know better than a being that know everything.

1. There always has to be the choice. You, knowing that your choice to do bad was self destructive, choose not to change. Justice still has to be served.

To answer your question yes I know more than god, I know more than any character in any fairy tale because they don't exist and therefore can't know anything.

I also have more freedom than god because I can do the illogical and logical, If what you'er saying is true.

There always has to be the choice. You, knowing that your choice to do bad was self destructive, choose not to change.

So why was it too late for the babies and toddlers? Why didn't they get a chance to make a choice?

How do you know that they're innocent?

Because it's a fact that they can't be held accountable for any of their actions. As for them getting killed off early because they would choose a corrupt path later, it doesn't hold together, you just said" there has to be a choice"

[fr0d0]

To answer your question yes I know more than god, I know more than any character in any fairy tale because they don't exist and therefore can't know anything.

How ludicrous. But then you're slipping into the absurd, so we must ignore such flippancy.

I also have more freedom than god because I can do the illogical and logical, If what you'er saying is true.

So you can make square circles? Wow. Please demonstrate.

There always has to be the choice. You, knowing that your choice to do bad was self destructive, choose not to change.

So why was it too late for the babies and toddlers? Why didn't they get a chance to make a choice?

So this is you wearing your all knowing hat right? Take the ants. Was it better you killed out the disease to save the species? Yes or no?

How do you know that they're innocent?

Because it's a fact that they can't be held accountable for any of their actions. As for them getting killed off early because they would choose a corrupt path later, it doesn't hold together, you just said" there has to be a choice"

Except in the scenario above. I don't believe you're making any new points here.

[Senshi]

How ludicrous. But then you're slipping into the absurd, so we must ignore such flippancy.

I have the right to treat god as a fairy tale until you prove otherwise.

So you can make square circles? Wow. Please demonstrate.

No but I can kill a crying baby to silence it, this surely is an illogical way of ending its cries. Killing it doesn't make any sense and can't possibly be justified.

Can humans be illogical at times? Yes of-course they can, they sadly are allot of times. You said god doesn't have that freedom. Therefore you were either wrong in saying god doesn't have that freedom, or, in choosing to categorize his actions into logical(possible) and illogical(impossible). Now which one do you admit to have messed up with?

So why was it too late for the babies and toddlers? Why didn't they get a chance to make a choice?

So this is you wearing your all knowing hat right? Take the ants. Was it better you killed out the disease to save the species? Yes or no?

I'll wear whatever hat I want.

They can't possibly be infected yet, they can still have a good upbringing and be shaped into good people. If you're gonna pull some 'satanically corrupted blood-line' stuff on me, I'm prepared for it. But I'm not gonna treat you with biased.

Because it's a fact that they can't be held accountable for any of their actions. As for them getting killed off early because they would choose a corrupt path later, it doesn't hold together, you just said" there has to be a choice"

Except in the scenario above. I don't believe you're making any new points here.

So why didn't god give them a chance/freedom to grow and choose?

[fr0d0]

I have the right to treat god as a fairy tale until you prove otherwise.

Indeed you do. It helps if you stick to the subject tho

So you can make square circles? Wow. Please demonstrate.

No but I can kill a crying baby to silence it, this surely is an illogical way of ending its cries. Killing it doesn't make any sense and can't possibly be justified.

Can humans be illogical at times? Yes of-course they can, they sadly are allot of times. You said god doesn't have that freedom. Therefore you were either wrong in saying god doesn't have that freedom, or, in choosing to categorize his actions into logical(possible) and illogical(impossible). Now which one do you admit to have messed up with?

So you'd let the species die out rather than kill the baby? Doesn't sound logical to me.
God can't do the impossible or the illogical. You are superior to God in your inferiority lol No offence intended. I think that pans out tho

So this is you wearing your all knowing hat right? Take the ants. Was it better you killed out the disease to save the species? Yes or no?

I'll wear whatever hat I want.

They can't possibly be infected yet, they can still have a good upbringing and be shaped into good people. If you're gonna pull some 'satanically corrupted blood-line' stuff on me, I'm prepared for it. But I'm not gonna treat you with biased.

They are infected. That's the judgement.

Except in the scenario above. I don't believe you're making any new points here.

So why didn't god give them a chance/freedom to grow and choose?

Because he knew that this was the cut off point where either everything was lost or he cut out and fixed things

[Senshi]

Ok so we've come to the conclusion that god can't do everything and anything, therefore he is not "all" powerful, but all-possible powerful. And that humans have the freedom to do the illogical while god can't.

Now explain to me this infection and why death was the best remedy.

[fr0d0]

1. God is all powerful, yet constrained by logic.

Can God lift a rock too heavy to lift = can God create square circles = can God do the illogical

2. That's the story we're addressing. God had to cure the species by pruning the dead wood. Is genetic inheritance true? Then inheritance of a genetic fault could be catastrophic.

[Angrboda]

2. That's the story we're addressing. God had to cure the species by pruning the dead wood. Is genetic inheritance true? Then inheritance of a genetic fault could be catastrophic.

Are you suggesting that sin has a genetic component?

[Neo-Scholastic]

2. That's the story we're addressing. God had to cure the species by pruning the dead wood. Is genetic inheritance true? Then inheritance of a genetic fault could be catastrophic.

Are you suggesting that sin has a genetic component?

I do not think that is outside the realm of possibility, What with Nephelim and all.

[Senshi]

1. God is all powerful, yet constrained by logic.

Can God lift a rock too heavy to lift = can God create square circles = can God do the illogical

2. That's the story we're addressing. God had to cure the species by pruning the dead wood. Is genetic inheritance true? Then inheritance of a genetic fault could be catastrophic.

Please elaborate further on this genetic element you're suggesting. Any scientific backing would be helpful too. Educate me as much as you can on it, pretend you're talking to someone who knows nothing about it.

Thank you, I know it's a tedious request. Atheists do have empathy.