Argument #2: Evolution Of Species

[Revelation777]

Apologies if this has already been covered; I'm catching up and replying on the fly.

Well many of your government leaders, judges, law officers, etc. believe God created everything, does that make them idiots too?

Here's how it works. Please take the time to take this on board, beacuse it really is key to the entire issue.

The Earth, like every planet we know, is spherical. Slightly flattened at the poles, hence "oblate". Now...

A man believes the world is a flat, circular plane. Does that change the shape of the world?

The man points to an ancient book which supports his belief. Does that change the shape of the world?

The man finds ten people who agree with him. Does that change the shape of the world?

Those people recruit thousands of followers. Does that change the shape of the world?

Some of those people are scientists. Does that change the shape of the world?

Eventually the group grows to millions, some of them world leaders. Does that change the shape of the world?

Soon the entire population believes the world is a flat, circular plane. Whole websites and libraries are filled with literature declaiming the truth of the world's being a flat, circular plane.

Does that change the shape of the world?

Would the world, if able to express a preference, care?

That is why the argument from popularity is a logical fallacy. We already know there are people with such beliefs; but belief in a thing does not equal the true nature nor even the existence of that thing.

Are you insinuating that the Bible says the world is flat? It doesn't say that.

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You will be given your chance to explain yourself before Him. I hope you repent long before that fateful day.

Blasphemy of the holy spirit. Unforgivable sin.

Are you claiming that the unforgivable is somehow now forgivable? Sorry, Rev - I have to call bullshit on that.

You're just making this shit up as you go, aren't you?

The way you blaspheme the Holy Ghost is by continuing to reject the Lord. Hope you don't do that.

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He has, He sent His prophets and His Son and man rejected their message and killed them. What more do you want Him to do?

How about something we can fucking observe?!

It was observed, and millions of changed lives attest to their own personal testimony of how Jesus changed them.

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He has, He sent His prophets and His Son and man rejected their message and killed them. What more do you want Him to do?

God sucking my dick without an intermediary would probably do it for me.

I must warn you I will place you on my ignore list if you continue to be so disrespectful to the Lord.

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Jesus made the claim He is the Son of God.

You're not Jesus.

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Not if you say you're a Spiritualist. Spiritualism is a recognised religion.

And that somehow makes it not nuts?

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He lives in my heart.

So do heartworms.

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He will come as a thief in the night. Please repent before it is too late.

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Read Genesis 1 for clarity:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

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Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

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Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

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So sharks and whales and cod are all the same 'kind'?

The Lord was not terrible specific on that kind of breakdown.

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God can do as He well pleases. If you make your own universe then do as you please.

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I don't believe in invoking magic, I believe in the Holy Bible.

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First you invoked that God can do anything, literally anything, a kind of magic, and then you claim you don't invoke magic.

One of these statements is a lie. Which one is it, Rev?

Regardless, that ERVs can be made consistent with the God hypothesis by invoking magic doesn't make them any less strong as evidence for evolution, as they are consistent with that hypothesis as well. They are a startling confirmation of common descent even IF you could achieve the same result with 'magic'. Do you have any actual evidence that God rather than evolution did it, or are you gonna settle for invoking magic as an answer?

I don't God's divine power magic.

[Chas]

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You're not Jesus.

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And that somehow makes it not nuts?

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So do heartworms.

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So sharks and whales and cod are all the same 'kind'?

The Lord was not terrible specific on that kind of breakdown.

So you admit that 'kind' is not actually defined and that you cannot use it to argue against evolution.

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First you invoked that God can do anything, literally anything, a kind of magic, and then you claim you don't invoke magic.

One of these statements is a lie. Which one is it, Rev?

Regardless, that ERVs can be made consistent with the God hypothesis by invoking magic doesn't make them any less strong as evidence for evolution, as they are consistent with that hypothesis as well. They are a startling confirmation of common descent even IF you could achieve the same result with 'magic'. Do you have any actual evidence that God rather than evolution did it, or are you gonna settle for invoking magic as an answer?

I don't God's divine power magic.

How does it differ?

[SteelCurtain]

Are you insinuating that the Bible says the world is flat? It doesn't say that.

Matthew 4:8: "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world"

Luke 4:5: "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."

Isaiah 40:22: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (note:Isaiah does NOT use the Hebrew word for sphere, Kadur here.)

Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

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I'd appreciate a response to this, Rev, getting back on topic.

A timely article, showing that humans and cephalopods (squids) evolved the eye from the same mutation. This is a preemptive strike on the sure to come irreducible complexity idiocy.

http://www.nature.com/srep/2014/140305/s...P-20140311

[Bob Kelso]

How about something we can fucking observe?!

It was observed, and millions of changed lives attest to their own personal testimony of how Jesus changed them.

Would you come off the circular reasoning/argumentum ad populum/personal experience fallacy-combo already? Bring something demonstrable from today's age and then we'll let you and the other theists sit at the big boy table Rev.

[Revelation777]

Are you insinuating that the Bible says the world is flat? It doesn't say that.

Matthew 4:8: "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world"

Luke 4:5: "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."

This is not saying the world is flat. The Devil supernaturally showed Jesus all the kingdoms he was in control over. I picture it more like watching a movie. According to Scripture, Satan has supernatural powers.


Isaiah 40:22: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (note:Isaiah does NOT use the Hebrew word for sphere, Kadur here.)

The word in Hebrew used here CAN be interpreted also as sphere. Also, often in the Bible figuratively just like it refers to people as grasshoppers, stretches out the heavens.

Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Again, this is figurative language. Just like if I were to say, to the ends of the earth.

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[quote='Esquilax' pid='667964' dateline='1399742349']

Given that it's the first concrete detail we've gotten out of Rev regarding an area of biology...

I agree completely, I'm hoping he can add a bit to the interbreeding stipulation. He may not, and I may be given license to decide his religious beliefs for him (my interpretations of the scripture he posted). At this point I am not sure which is more likely, but I'm hoping he decides to communicate with me and not talk at me.

So far slow going, but there is always the chance. I don't have to agree with him, I just need to know what the words he uses actually mean to him, or there is nothing but noise.

So help me out here Rev! I want to know what YOU think.

What do you want to know?

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As a red labeled member, let me encourage you to set an example on this forum for proper decorum.

As a green-labelled member, let me inform you that you are not a red-labelled member.

(See the importance of grammar in discussions?)

Anyway, I'm sure I speak for the newly-ripened CD when I say:

ok

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As a red labeled member, let me encourage you to set an example on this forum for proper decorum.

Eat me.


How's that for proper decorum?

I see, ok. Well, then. Pretend I never brought up the suggestion.

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When Jesus returns there will be no atheists left. But till then there will be unbelief.

Good luck with that. When that happens, when ol' "Pity Me" decides to show his beardy face, give me a call. In the meantime, I'll thank you to keep your preachy platitudes and contemptuous condemnations to your sanctimonious self, m'kay?

Did you get offended?

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Did you really think the likes of Revs could ever have had another purpose for being here than to preach, using whatever disguise they imagined would help them get through the vigilance of those who have become inured to normal modes of christain proselytizing?

Is that a rethorical question?

Now lets not stereotype

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So kind just means species then?

The Holy Scriptures does not get into great detail on this. It gives a general account of creation.

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Origins and DNA evidence
Biologists use the DNA sequences of modern organisms to reconstruct the tree of life and to figure out the likely characteristics of the most recent common ancestor of all living things — the "trunk" of the tree of life. In fact, according to some hypotheses, this "most recent common ancestor" may actually be a set of organisms that lived at the same time and were able to swap genes easily. In either case, reconstructing the early branches on the tree of life tells us that this ancestor (or set of ancestors) probably used DNA as its genetic material and performed complex chemical reactions. But what came before it? We know that this last common ancestor must have had ancestors of its own - a long line of forebears forming the root of the tree of life - but to learn about them, we must turn to other lines of evidence.

Just because organisms have DNA with common genetic materials doesn't prove all species have a common ancestor.

You don't actually understand the DNA evidence, do you?

DNA is a string of pairs of purines (Adenine and Guanine) and pyrimidines (Cytosine and Thymine), two of each.
DNA codes for making amino acids.
The code is determined by triplets of these pairs.
Since each location can be one of four combinations (A-T, T-A, G-C, C-G), there are 64 possible triplets. These triplets code for 20 amino acids and a start/stop processing code.

The odds of arriving at that particular coding are about a million million million million million to one.

Every organism on earth uses the same code. Every. Single. One.

That clearly means common ancestry.

Thank you for the lesson. However, why can't an all-powerful God have used the same code? He is the Creator, sounds like He certainly could of done it that way.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Are you insinuating that the Bible says the world is flat? It doesn't say that.

Actually, it does.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

[you cannot see 'all the kingdoms of the world' from a montaintop unless the Earth is flat]

Additionally, I think (though I may be wrong) that it is in Isaiah that the Earth is described as 'a circle'. Circles, by definition, are flat.

Boru

[eyemixer]

Rev,

I noticed you have responded to several others without answering a very specific question I have been asking you for a while.

What, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, is the definition of a 'kind'?

You have indicated that two 'kinds' must be able to breed, but have included no other qualifiers. You have only shown me scripture as a reference.

Can I assume that ONLY interbreeding defines what qualifies as a 'kind'? You have failed to provide any additional information.

Am I to interpret the scripture you posted, determine for myself what it means, and then claim you hold the opinions I come up with? If not, please tell me what meaning in terms of defining a 'kind' those lines of scripture provide.

I am one of the few people in this thread that are still interested in what you have to say, but if your goal is not to communicate, please make that clear by openly stating it rather than refusing to communicate after multiple prompts that have all been kindly worded and presented.

Thank you.

[SteelCurtain]

Again, this is figurative language. Just like if I were to say, to the ends of the earth.

Where do you think that figurative language came from, Rev? And why do you think that became figurative?

This is not saying the world is flat. The Devil supernaturally showed Jesus all the kingdoms he was in control over. I picture it more like watching a movie. According to Scripture, Satan has supernatural powers.

Where, in the Bible, does it say the devil supernaturally showed Jesus the entire earth? I'm flipping through my Bible now, I can't find any such claim...

[jesus_wept]

Are you insinuating that the Bible says the world is flat? It doesn't say that.

Matthew 4:8: "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world"

Luke 4:5: "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."

Isaiah 40:22: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (note:Isaiah does NOT use the Hebrew word for sphere, Kadur here.)

Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Doesn't the bible also say Jesus will return in the clouds and everyone will be able to see him when he does? Again this is only possible on a small, flat earth.

[Cyberman]

I'll leave this here for when he gets back from his timeout.

Apologies if this has already been covered; I'm catching up and replying on the fly.


Here's how it works. Please take the time to take this on board, beacuse it really is key to the entire issue.

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The Earth, like every planet we know, is spherical. Slightly flattened at the poles, hence "oblate". Now...

A man believes the world is a flat, circular plane. Does that change the shape of the world?

The man points to an ancient book which supports his belief. Does that change the shape of the world?

The man finds ten people who agree with him. Does that change the shape of the world?

Those people recruit thousands of followers. Does that change the shape of the world?

Some of those people are scientists. Does that change the shape of the world?

Eventually the group grows to millions, some of them world leaders. Does that change the shape of the world?

Soon the entire population believes the world is a flat, circular plane. Whole websites and libraries are filled with literature declaiming the truth of the world's being a flat, circular plane.

Does that change the shape of the world?

Would the world, if able to express a preference, care?

That is why the argument from popularity is a logical fallacy. We already know there are people with such beliefs; but belief in a thing does not equal the true nature nor even the existence of that thing.

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Are you insinuating that the Bible says the world is flat? It doesn't say that.

And neither did I. Look up the word "analogy". Then re-read what I wrote in the light of your insistence on arguing from popularity.