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Argument #3: Mutations
June 10, 2014 at 11:35 pm
(This post was last modified: June 10, 2014 at 11:41 pm by Revelation777.)
Carl Sagan, stated that evolution was caused by "the slow accumulations of favorable mutations." However, mutations which apparently result in new traits in an organism are due to the corruption of existing information rather than the formation of mutations gaining new information. This reality conflicts against what would be expected for the advancement of evolution.
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 10, 2014 at 11:37 pm
Oh, good Grud!
Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:
"You did WHAT? With WHO? WHERE???"
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 10, 2014 at 11:41 pm
Chew toy, you're back!
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 10, 2014 at 11:42 pm
(June 10, 2014 at 11:41 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: Chew toy, you're back!
Are you okay with that? 
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 10, 2014 at 11:45 pm
(June 10, 2014 at 11:42 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: (June 10, 2014 at 11:41 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: Chew toy, you're back!
Are you okay with that?
Absolutely! 
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 10, 2014 at 11:52 pm
(June 10, 2014 at 11:35 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: Carl Sagan, stated that evolution was caused by "the slow accumulations of favorable mutations." However, mutations which apparently result in new traits in an organism are due to the corruption of existing information rather than the formation of mutations gaining new information. This reality conflicts against what would be expected for the advancement of evolution.
Wrong.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html
/thread
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 10, 2014 at 11:56 pm
You know, it occurs to me Rev, that before you post the stuff you rip off from AIG, that you might want to cross-check it against what real biologists actually have to say on the matter, lest it make you look foolish.
I'm having an odd sensation of deja vu.
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 10, 2014 at 11:57 pm
^^Yup.
Rev! Compared to our current chewtoys, your particular brand of neener-neener-boo-boo is a welcome sight!
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 11, 2014 at 12:14 am
(June 10, 2014 at 11:56 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: You know, it occurs to me Rev, that before you post the stuff you rip off from AIG, that you might want to cross-check it against what real biologists actually have to say on the matter, lest it make you look foolish.
I'm having an odd sensation of deja vu.
FYI, I didn't get that from AIG.
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RE: Argument #3: Mutations
June 11, 2014 at 12:16 am
(This post was last modified: June 11, 2014 at 12:19 am by SteelCurtain.)
Before we move on, address the answer to your argument, Rev. ETA: I forgot about this part of 'discussion' with Rev.
I'll quote it, in case you missed it:
Quote:1. It is hard to understand how anyone could make this claim, since anything mutations can do, mutations can undo. Some mutations add information to a genome; some subtract it. Creationists get by with this claim only by leaving the term "information" undefined, impossibly vague, or constantly shifting. By any reasonable definition, increases in information have been observed to evolve. We have observed the evolution of
increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)
increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)
novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)
novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)
If these do not qualify as information, then nothing about information is relevant to evolution in the first place.
2. A mechanism that is likely to be particularly common for adding information is gene duplication, in which a long stretch of DNA is copied, followed by point mutations that change one or both of the copies. Genetic sequencing has revealed several instances in which this is likely the origin of some proteins. For example:
Two enzymes in the histidine biosynthesis pathway that are barrel-shaped, structural and sequence evidence suggests, were formed via gene duplication and fusion of two half-barrel ancestors (Lang et al. 2000).
RNASE1, a gene for a pancreatic enzyme, was duplicated, and in langur monkeys one of the copies mutated into RNASE1B, which works better in the more acidic small intestine of the langur. (Zhang et al. 2002)
Yeast was put in a medium with very little sugar. After 450 generations, hexose transport genes had duplicated several times, and some of the duplicated versions had mutated further. (Brown et al. 1998)
The biological literature is full of additional examples. A PubMed search (at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi) on "gene duplication" gives more than 3000 references.
3. According to Shannon-Weaver information theory, random noise maximizes information. This is not just playing word games. The random variation that mutations add to populations is the variation on which selection acts. Mutation alone will not cause adaptive evolution, but by eliminating nonadaptive variation, natural selection communicates information about the environment to the organism so that the organism becomes better adapted to it. Natural selection is the process by which information about the environment is transferred to an organism's genome and thus to the organism (Adami et al. 2000).
4. The process of mutation and selection is observed to increase information and complexity in simulations (Adami et al. 2000; Schneider 2000).
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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