Hey Folks,
I have been reading some of the works of Celsus considering he is the only real Critic of Jesus who's writings survived from the early church, He was born in the 2nd Century (100 - 200) so he is fairly close to when Jesus existed and I am sure word of mouth, indeed I am also sure there were probably other Critics however at 446 they were all burned by 'The Christians'. Meaning that most stuff we have that would have bashed Christianity out of existence is now lost.
Interesting for de-converting Christians Celsus hits at the absolute Crux of the Issue,
Eternal Punishment - In his writings he says,
Now most of us know passively that Eternal Hell was a made up concept and allot of us worried about 'What If' but as we see here Celsus makes us aware that there were other religions that also taught Eternal Punishment, More than likely these were snuffed out by Constantine to make the original fear of Christianity stronger.
Then he continues
Again he is pointing to the fact that Christians realizing there works were problematic and inconsistent kept changing them until their works looked more co-cohesive and more correct. This is why although with Faults Christians can believe the Bible being Gods word, Because the version they have is one with probably allot less problems than the original gospels available.
Celsus Continues:
Again he points out the fact that there are other Critics of Jesus and other information pertaining to him, He is making clear that what we see in the Gospels is in no way the complete picture and in fact if we take what he said above it looks like its been heavily doctored.
Celsus then goes on to talk about Knowledge, This is something I myself had a problem with in the bible, Why did Jesus openly defame knowledge as a way to enlightenment, Why did he say we were to be as ignorant as children. Celsus has a real answer for this.
Celsus knew the people of his day extremely well, He even openly spoke down about the Tax Collectors and Fishermen who were completely stupid in his own words.
He has allot more to say and I would suggest reading it, He ultimately extinguished my fear of hell and the 'What If'. As we can read we are told that Hell is Eternal for many other religions of the day where when we look at History around this period we find very little that talks about Eternal Hell's - So his insight and viewpoint prove to us that Jesus was not the only one preaching Believe or Burn!
That is strong if not complete evidence against the hold that Christianity has over people, The later church obviously knew that Hell was a made up concept - Heck do you really think with the way the Vatican gets on that they are afraid of hell.
Heck is it not interesting that the Pope himself denounced the belief in hell,
With what Celsus said with the way Christians in 'Power' have behaved and the way in which those same Christians in power have no problems with hurting people - It would give us strong evidence that they know that Hell is a myth.
It also stands to reason why Christianity grew in the early years - Because it sucked in the gullible idiots and the women back then who obviously like Constantines mother then taught this religion to her son and the rest they say is history.
Lastly Celsus leaves the reader with an interesting proposition
What is sad is that we only have Fragments of what he said, We only have fragments of Prophyry but even with these fragments it gives us an insight that Official Documents wont show - I am sure Constantine redacted documents about Jesus or even destroyed them as did later 'Christian' emperors so as to leave future people with little evidence outside of the 'Bible'
I have always found it interesting that around the time God is said to have existed that it appears to be really quiet from historians - Something so great would have been documented!
The other thing I found difficult is that Jesus is supposed to have been born of the Davidic line and Porphyry makes jest at that fact that Mary who was a basket maker / prostitute was unaware of this royal fact.[/quote]
I have been reading some of the works of Celsus considering he is the only real Critic of Jesus who's writings survived from the early church, He was born in the 2nd Century (100 - 200) so he is fairly close to when Jesus existed and I am sure word of mouth, indeed I am also sure there were probably other Critics however at 446 they were all burned by 'The Christians'. Meaning that most stuff we have that would have bashed Christianity out of existence is now lost.
Interesting for de-converting Christians Celsus hits at the absolute Crux of the Issue,
Eternal Punishment - In his writings he says,
Quote:"In truth there is nothing at all unusual about what the christians believe, except that they believe it to the exclusion of more comprehensive truths about god. They believe in eternal punishment; well, so do the priests and initiates of the various religions. The christian threaten others with this punishment, just as they are themselves threatened." (121).
Now most of us know passively that Eternal Hell was a made up concept and allot of us worried about 'What If' but as we see here Celsus makes us aware that there were other religions that also taught Eternal Punishment, More than likely these were snuffed out by Constantine to make the original fear of Christianity stronger.
Then he continues
Quote:"It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie, and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction: I have heard that some of your interpreters...are on to the inconsistencies and, pen in hand, alter the originals writings, three, four and several more times over in order to be able to deny the contradictions in the face of criticism." (37).
Again he is pointing to the fact that Christians realizing there works were problematic and inconsistent kept changing them until their works looked more co-cohesive and more correct. This is why although with Faults Christians can believe the Bible being Gods word, Because the version they have is one with probably allot less problems than the original gospels available.
Celsus Continues:
Quote:"I could continue along these lines, suggesting a good deal about the affairs of Jesus' life that does not appear in your own records. Indeed, what I know to be the case and what the disciples tell are two very different stories... [for example] the nonsensical idea that Jesus foresaw everything that was to happen to him (an obvious attempt to conceal the humiliating facts)." (62).
Again he points out the fact that there are other Critics of Jesus and other information pertaining to him, He is making clear that what we see in the Gospels is in no way the complete picture and in fact if we take what he said above it looks like its been heavily doctored.
Celsus then goes on to talk about Knowledge, This is something I myself had a problem with in the bible, Why did Jesus openly defame knowledge as a way to enlightenment, Why did he say we were to be as ignorant as children. Celsus has a real answer for this.
Quote:44 The following are the rules laid down by them. Let no one come to us who has been instructed, or who is wise or prudent (for such qualifications are deemed evil by us); but if there be any ignorant, or unintelligent, or uninstructed, or foolish persons, let them come with confidence. By which words, acknowledging that such individuals are worthy of their God, they manifestly show that they desire and are able to gain over only the silly, and the mean, and the stupid, with women and children.
Celsus knew the people of his day extremely well, He even openly spoke down about the Tax Collectors and Fishermen who were completely stupid in his own words.
He has allot more to say and I would suggest reading it, He ultimately extinguished my fear of hell and the 'What If'. As we can read we are told that Hell is Eternal for many other religions of the day where when we look at History around this period we find very little that talks about Eternal Hell's - So his insight and viewpoint prove to us that Jesus was not the only one preaching Believe or Burn!
That is strong if not complete evidence against the hold that Christianity has over people, The later church obviously knew that Hell was a made up concept - Heck do you really think with the way the Vatican gets on that they are afraid of hell.
Heck is it not interesting that the Pope himself denounced the belief in hell,
Quote:“Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God” Pope Francis declared.
With what Celsus said with the way Christians in 'Power' have behaved and the way in which those same Christians in power have no problems with hurting people - It would give us strong evidence that they know that Hell is a myth.
It also stands to reason why Christianity grew in the early years - Because it sucked in the gullible idiots and the women back then who obviously like Constantines mother then taught this religion to her son and the rest they say is history.
Lastly Celsus leaves the reader with an interesting proposition
Quote:"What do the christians say? They say, "First believe that the person who tells us these things is god's son... Now if these beleivers confess Jesus and others confess someone else, and if they all together have the slogan "Believe and be saved, or damn you," what is to happen to those who really do want to be saved? I mean, which path are they to follow, since advice of the same sort comes from all quarters? Are the ones who crave salvation to throw dice in order to find out where they should turn?" (93).
What is sad is that we only have Fragments of what he said, We only have fragments of Prophyry but even with these fragments it gives us an insight that Official Documents wont show - I am sure Constantine redacted documents about Jesus or even destroyed them as did later 'Christian' emperors so as to leave future people with little evidence outside of the 'Bible'
I have always found it interesting that around the time God is said to have existed that it appears to be really quiet from historians - Something so great would have been documented!
The other thing I found difficult is that Jesus is supposed to have been born of the Davidic line and Porphyry makes jest at that fact that Mary who was a basket maker / prostitute was unaware of this royal fact.[/quote]
Rants and Raves from an Ex-Christian http://walkofthemonkeyman.blogspot.co.uk/
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