Why knocking is so important.

[Drich]

Drich, what about the many boys and girls here who were religious for most of their lives but aren't now. Did they find god?
Is it possible in your mind that someone can truly find god and still reject him?

Or will it be a case of the "no failure" clause in your argument by suggesting that maybe they didn't truly believe or aren't trying hard enough?
Just curious to hear "your" version of events.

:Facepalm:

Did you not read the OP?

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Or maybe when we are in need we meet the requirements of humility needed to finally hear God.

Desperation is not humility. If finding god depends in any way on our emotional state, then it's inherently an unreliable way to find him.

Deperation will indeed beget humility.

[Minimalist]

Of course he did. 8 pages later it remains the deranged mutterings of a lunatic who believes in invisible sky-daddies.

I hope you don't think you've made a single valid point in all this?

[Drich]

The primary problem you are having is that you use terms like evidence and miracle, and default to fiction to give you your definitions.

For example what does undeniable evidence of God look like in this world?

Define what a miracle is.

---

I agree there is a huge problem in what you have pointed out. However I do not agree to the source of said problem.

Define miracle and out line what indisputable evidence of God looks like.

Hah, not my problem man. It's the Christians that say they have indisputable evidence or revelation of God through his miracles, not me. I'm just making the point that apprently they have had experiences that make it impossible for them not to believe in God, which blows free will out of the water.

Have I made this claim? if not then I need to know what indispuitable evidence looks like.

[FatAndFaithless]

Also, I'm sure there are utterly sincere Christians that disagree with you on some very important points, Drich, who would also claim that they have sought and found God. Do you have any method of determining who has actually had God revealed to them, or who holds the correct belief on certain questions?

[Drich]

[You have no idea what view of God I had was. When I was a Christian I tried to be open minded as I sought the truth.

What ever you believed failed did it not? Or are you saying what you believe yielded an accurate picture and solid interactive relationship with God, but dispite all of that you turned and left your beliefs anyway? If not then you had a corrupt understanding of who God is.

Now that I am an apostate I live my life basically the same as I did before except I sleep in on Sunday.

Knowing God is not about behaivor. Biblicaly Christianity centers relationship, not the way we act.

Do I still seek god? I seek the truth. If it turns out that God is true then I will accept that. I see no evidence of that at this time however.

If you seek evidence then ask Him for it. Seek it out until you find it. But first you must understand what evidence is being offered.

[Simon Moon]

If I do not currently presuppose a god exists, how am I to 'examine and quest for the truth of God'?

How is this any different than 'faking it 'til I make it'?

The biggest problem with your A/S/K 'method' is that no matter how much we tell you that we tried, you have a built in, ready to go reason why it didn't work.

"You didn't try for long enough"
"You weren't sincere enough"
Or whatever...

Since you are so convinced, it has to be something we are doing wrong, and nothing to do with the real possibility that you are simply wrong, and that you have been convinced for bad reasons.

It's like anything else that your unsure of. lets say it is like lazer eye surgery. It's been around for a while, and there are many who have had the proceedure and for them it works out great. But for you your still uncertain. So how would you go about prooving to your self that lazer eye surgery is good for you?

You ask around to people who have had it, you go on line and research and if your serious you talk to a Doctor until you come to a conclusion

Dont look now but that is the ASK SEEK KNOCK method working in a non Spiritual context. (No Faith required)

In the same way when we are looking for God we ask People, and in prayer. We seek in places like this, and we knock by repeating the fore mention process till we get what we were looking for.

It's nothing like laser eye surgery.

And it's nothing like doing the research to figure out if I want to take the minor risk and have it done.

What a horribly flawed analogy.

I can prove that laser eye surgery exists. I can have the Dr. show my the device. I can go to the pertinent literature and research the track record of successes, failures, side effects, etc.

The people that have had it done, can provide evidence that they have had it done. I don't have to take their faith based word for it. There are tests that can be performed to actually test if the surgery was successful. There are none for Christianity.

It also does not matter what sort of supernatural presuppositions they have, they will all have similar results. A group of Muslims that have had the surgery, will have the same results as a group of Hindus, or Christians. With the A/S/K technique to work, you have to presuppose a god that can be communicated with exists in the first place.

On every possible level, your analogy fails.

[FatAndFaithless]

Hah, not my problem man. It's the Christians that say they have indisputable evidence or revelation of God through his miracles, not me. I'm just making the point that apprently they have had experiences that make it impossible for them not to believe in God, which blows free will out of the water.

Have I made this claim? if not then I need to know what indispuitable evidence looks like.

..Nno...you again seem to be missing my point. Other Christians claim they have had undeniable proof of God revealed to them (through creation, personal experience, relationship with God, blah blah).

I suppose I should ask this first: If one sincerely does the A/S/K routine, and does it until he receives an answer from God, would that not be evidence of God's existence? That's kind of what I thought you were claiming.

[Anomalocaris]

Hah, not my problem man. It's the Christians that say they have indisputable evidence or revelation of God through his miracles, not me. I'm just making the point that apprently they have had experiences that make it impossible for them not to believe in God, which blows free will out of the water.

Have I made this claim? if not then I need to know what indispuitable evidence looks like.

Indisputable evidence looks like the diametrical opposite of the bible, as well as what you imagine to be the result produced by A/S/K,

You needn't know what indisputable evidence looks like, because it takes intellect beyond yours, and attitude centuries more enlightened than yours, to either recognize it when you see it, or make the proper use of it should it fall within your grasp.

You only need to know you haven't got it, and that disqualifies you from being worth listening to. so back off.

[Drich]

But if I A/S/K for Yahweh and find nothing, something exists?

As stated in the OP if you seek God and do not find Him then your version of him does not exist. This again is like the foolish man building his house on the sand.

If you seek the God of the bible, as presented in the bible you will given the Holy Spirit.

Shiva is just an example. Are you insinuating that no other god is 'approachable by man?'

As far as i am aware no other active god seeks a relationship with man as the God of the bible.

A person who claims to find a different god or uses a different method would be met with some suspicion by you?

I am not put off by names or identifying titles. I seek commonalities as found in the bible.
(The sheep know the Shepard's voice)

Based on your explanations, the god of the bible isn't the one who seeks. He demands that prospective followers do the seeking, and only reveals himself under a fairly specific set of circumstances and only at a time of his choosing. This, even though it seems it would be no effort at all for him to seek a relationship with anyone.

Now ask yourself why He demands this.[/quote]

[Lucanus]

If you seek evidence then ask Him for it. Seek it out until you find it. But first you must understand what evidence is being offered.

By asking him, one should presuppose his existence. By seeking him, the only evidence one would have would be in their own mind. Such "evidence", consisting of actions supposedly operated by god for the good of the seeker, could not be confirmed by another observer (who could dismiss it as coincidences or as products of the seeker's good will and ability), thus would not be objective.