Seeking

[tjakey]

A believer started a thread insisting that all an atheist, or anyone else for that matter, has to do to “find god” is to look. It seems kind of a silly claim at first, but it is based on another of the innumerable claims of their holy book that turn out empty. This one, for anyone who cares, can be found in the section they call Matthew. It may well be the believer in question honestly thinks he has a point. It may also be that he thinks Noah actually built an Ark.

In reality there is a whole collection of people who sincerely tried to “find god”, only to come up empty; a facet of “knocking” that our ranting Christian friend apparently never considered; that of those who have left faith behind. It is a common misconception that people who used to be members, but then find themselves outside the community of faith, chose to stop believing. It doesn't always work like that.

In fact it is often just the opposite, with every effort made to cling to the faith that is starting to slip away. Renewed dedications to study and church services, endless promises made to one's self to “do better” And yes, sometimes, near desperate prayers that the god would show itself or, at least, send some word of encouragement. Prayers that go deep into the night and come from the bottom of the heart.

When one's entire life has been built on a religious identity, finding that identity starting to falter (often for reasons not understood until years later) is going to ignite a firestorm of internal drama. It often ignites an equal storm among friends and family. After all friends and family have only and ever known this person as a believer, one of the faithful. It is equally likely that, for the truly dedicated, everyone close to them is a believer as well. Such faith does not fail without some serious crashing sounds going on in a life.

Eventually the now-ex-believer realizes that faith has faded completely away. The prayers were never going to be answered, and that all the seeking was in vain. There was simply nothing to find. (Oddly enough, it may be years again before such a person will use the word "atheist" to describe him or herself.)

It is completely untrue that everyone who seeks a god will find one. Indeed, anyone who looks honestly is likely to come up empty handed, not a bad thing at all. Truth is a much more faithful mistress than is faith, and a lot more fun. As for the believer who insists that all who seek will find, nothing will convince him otherwise. It is, after all, in the book. But he really doesn't have a clue.

[Chad32]

Yeah, there are passages that say if you look, you will find. Ask, and it will be answered. Obviously this is easily tested and proven wrong, so people will say you weren't looking hard enough. Despite there being people who were incredibly devout, and still became atheists. Moving the goalposts is the only thing they can do when some part of the bible makes a testable claim, and the test fails.

[The Valkyrie]

I tell believers all they have to do to find reality is to look.
They don't need faith and they certainly don't need a belief in it.

[Drich]

A believer started a thread insisting that all an atheist, or anyone else for that matter, has to do to “find god” is to look. It seems kind of a silly claim at first, but it is based on another of the innumerable claims of their holy book that turn out empty. This one, for anyone who cares, can be found in the section they call Matthew. It may well be the believer in question honestly thinks he has a point. It may also be that he thinks Noah actually built an Ark.

It's always promising when an op starts out with a straw man "he says, All one has to do is look." Then sites the wrong book/source material, and ends with a red herring' (as Noah had nothing to do with anything being discussed.)

In reality there is a whole collection of people who sincerely tried to “find god”, only to come up empty; a facet of “knocking” that our ranting Christian friend apparently never considered; that of those who have left faith behind. It is a common misconception that people who used to be members, but then find themselves outside the community of faith, chose to stop believing. It doesn't always work like that.

In fact it is often just the opposite, with every effort made to cling to the faith that is starting to slip away.

wow, just wow. Did you even read the op you are referencing? 1/2 of it explained that loss of faith was apart of an answer to a prayer for a closer connection with God. In that God will not support a corrupt view of Him, and according to Christ will send the rain to wash away your 'house/faith'.
If one keeps knocking. Meaning asking and seeking the believer will eventually build an accurate picture of God, one that God can and will support.

Why would God support a corrupt version of Himself to a potential believer?

Renewed dedications to study and church services, endless promises made to one's self to “do better” And yes, sometimes, near desperate prayers that the god would show itself or, at least, send some word of encouragement. Prayers that go deep into the night and come from the bottom of the heart.

If one is this involved then surly this person has come across
Mat 7:24-29 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=NASB

In doing so a humble man would search himself to try and discern which type of man he is, rather than assume he is the former rather than the latter. This person would also know that God demands us to approach Him in all humility. If he can not approach God in humility/face the idea that he may be the foolish man in the parable, then how can he expect God to positively support his petitions and prayers?

When one's entire life has been built on a religious identity, finding that identity starting to falter (often for reasons not understood until years later) is going to ignite a firestorm of internal drama. It often ignites an equal storm among friends and family. After all friends and family have only and ever known this person as a believer, one of the faithful. It is equally likely that, for the truly dedicated, everyone close to them is a believer as well. Such faith does not fail without some serious crashing sounds going on in a life.

This level of faith should also be a red flag in a biblically based Christian's life. Fore, Christ does not require a mountain of faith, He is recorded in telling us that we only need a mustard seed's worth of faith. To expend anymore than this, is to be outside the picture of belief Christ Himself constructed.

Rather when we expend this mustard seed God will give us proof in the way of the Holy Spirit. Through the proof of the Holy Spirit we can establish and maintain a belief, not one based in blind faith, but a belief built in proof.

Eventually the now-ex-believer realizes that faith has faded completely away. The prayers were never going to be answered, and that all the seeking was in vain. There was simply nothing to find. (Oddly enough, it may be years again before such a person will use the word "atheist" to describe him or herself.)

indeed. If you spent a life time worship anyother God than the God of the bible, then why would God support this other version of Himself?

It is completely untrue that everyone who seeks a god will find one.

Never once have I made that claim. I have said repeatedly that many will seek, but none will find unless he knocks.

Indeed, anyone who looks honestly is likely to come up empty handed, not a bad thing at all. Truth is a much more faithful mistress than is faith, and a lot more fun. As for the believer who insists that all who seek will find, nothing wil

l convince him otherwise. It is, after all, in the book. But he really doesn't have a clue.
[/quote]
-or-
Maybe he has not only a clue, but the key to the actual proof needed to establish and maintain a relationship with the God of the bible.

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Yeah, there are passages that say if you look, you will find. Ask, and it will be answered. Obviously this is easily tested and proven wrong, so people will say you weren't looking hard enough. Despite there being people who were incredibly devout, and still became atheists. Moving the goalposts is the only thing they can do when some part of the bible makes a testable claim, and the test fails.

Moving the goal post back into it's original context, you mean.

[Silver]

If one seeks something with an open enough mind, s/he will find it. Especially, if it is not real, for the mind and the emotional need for it to be real will insist that it is real regardless of the truth.

[tjakey]

Dirch, you are a bit lost yourself, aren't you. There are thousands upon thousands of people who are ex-Christians. People whose faith was at least as informed and as dear to them as you think yours is to you, and who believed in the same god you do. Yet you are going to dismiss their experience out of hand, feigning to understand some deep thing about god that they never grasped, that you have the un-corrupted view. Hardly the attitude of a humble person. In fact it is the utmost arrogance to presume that no one could discover that faith in your god was a mistake unless they did not actually believe in your god in the first place.

I will grant that the very idea must be worrisome to you, and that you think there must be a way to explain it without casting doubt on your god's existence. But there isn't. Honest, once deeply faithful people, with no ax to grind and no hard feelings toward anyone, with no other desire than to follow the truth where ever it may lead, have examined their faith in the Christian god and found it misplaced. They asked but the answers where not what they expected. They sought and found an unsuspected truth. They knocked, but when the door opened it led them out of your church and away from your god.

And that was the only point I was making. One clearly beyond the grasp of anyone so caught up in faith that they make a claim as foolish as "belief based in proof". If there was proof, belief would not be required. In fact, it would not even be possible. You can know a thing. You can believe a thing. But you cannot, in honesty, do both at the same time in regard to the same thing.

And I am going to guess that is beyond you as well.

By the way, the reference to Noah was a kind of inside joke for those who know that the story of Noah is just that, a story. Not true, not even good allegory, just one bit of mythology in an entire religion of mythology. It was like suggesting that someone who believed the earth was flat might also believe that the sun orbits the planet. You should be embarrassed that it went right over your head, that you were actually dumb enough to call it a "straw man" argument.

But you won't be.

Someday though, you might. For here is something you can know with absolute assurance. People more Christian than you, more knowledgeable, more studied, more faithful, more loving, more Christlike, with true humility, showing more of the fruits of the spirit, better thinkers, and with more courage than you can possibly imagine, are Christians no longer.

There is a small chance that you might join them someday. After all, you are hanging out in this forum and attempting to defend your faith.

[Minimalist]

Drippy is our resident source of amusement around here.

Nutty as a fruitcake.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I've looked for god. He wasn't in any of the cupboards or the attic. I checked the shed, no sign of him. Tomorrow, I'll look behind the sofa cushions.

Boru

[KUSA]

Why would God support a corrupt version of Himself to a potential believer?

Interesting question. One would think that finding the correct view of God would be as simple as asking a believer but sadly it's not.

Every believer has a different view of God. There are literally millions of different views of God. Which is the correct one and which is corrupt? Every believer will tell you that they have the correct view because they have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Tell me something Drippy. Do you have the correct view of God?

[tjakey]

Drippy is our resident source of amusement around here.

Nutty as a fruitcake.

I see that, though it might be a special kind of talent to string that many words together while making so little sense. Maybe he will be an American politician some day. Maybe he already is one.

Someone should put a note over the door to this place, warning the believers that it is likely many of the people around here know more about their bible and their religious mythology, ideology, and history than they do. Not that it would do any good.