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Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
#1
Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
Quote:"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

Who has seen God and what does it mean to see God 'face to face?'

Did Abraham? Genesis 18:1-3 Note that Jehovah god is mistaken for one of the three men. Was God a man or an angel in the form of a man who represented God?

Did Moses? Numbers 12:8 - Note that it is an apperance of God that represents God to Moses.

Did Jacob? Genesis 32:30 - Note Hosea 12:2-4 points out that it was an angel who represented God that grappled with Jacob.

Did Manoah and his wife? Judges 13:2-22 - Note that the angel of Jehovah God is called Jehovah God.

Did Gideon? Judges 6:11-23 - Later Jehovah's angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian. Then Jehovah's angel appeared to him and said to him: "Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one." At this Gideon said to him: "Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, 'Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?' And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Midian." Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: "Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian's palm. Do I not send you?" In turn he said to him: "Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel? Look! My thousand is the least in Manasseh, and I am the smallest in my father’s house." But Jehovah said to him: "Because I shall prove to be with you, and you will certainly strike down Midian as if one man."

At this he said to him: "If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, you must also perform a sign for me that you are the one speaking with me. Do not, please, move away from here until I come to you and I have brought out my gift and set it before you." Accordingly he said: "I, for my part, shall keep sitting here until you return." And Gideon went in and proceeded to make ready a kid of the goats and an ephah of flour as unfermented cakes. The meat he put in the basket, and the broth he put in the cooking pot, after which he brought it out to him under the big tree and served it.

The angel of the [true] God now said to him: "Take the meat and the unfermented cakes and set them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth." At that he did so. Then Jehovah's angel thrust out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unfermented cakes, and fire began to ascend out of the rock and to consume the meat and the unfermented cakes. As for Jehovah's angel, he vanished from his sight. Consequently Gideon realized that it was Jehovah’s angel.

At once Gideon said: "Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah's angel face to face!" But Jehovah said to him: "Peace be yours. Do not fear. You will not die." So Gideon built an altar there to Jehovah, and it continues to be called Jehovah-shalom down to this day. It is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

No man has seen God but a few have seen representations of him. The angels are, in a sense, at least to the people they deal with, the same as God.
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#2
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
Scripture is not evidence, remember?
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#3
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
So have you managed to demonstrate that the essential claims of your bible have any credibility yet? No? Thought not!

Kyu
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#4
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
(November 7, 2008 at 1:24 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Scripture is not evidence, remember?

(November 7, 2008 at 1:39 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: So have you managed to demonstrate that the essential claims of your bible have any credibility yet? No? Thought not!

Kyu

I think that it would be best for the two of you to consider the Bible as complete fiction and go from there. Don't consider the evidence or credibility of it as important in a consideration of what you more comfortably think of as complete fiction. I'm not here to convince or convert you. Just educate you on the Bible.
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#5
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
(November 7, 2008 at 2:42 pm)Daystar Wrote: I think that it would be best for the two of you to consider the Bible as complete fiction and go from there. Don't consider the evidence or credibility of it as important in a consideration of what you more comfortably think of as complete fiction. I'm not here to convince or convert you. Just educate you on the Bible.
You make no sense. Firstly you say that we should consider the Bible as fiction (fine, it's what all of us do already), and then claim not to be here to convert us, merely educate us on the Bible.

I ask you, what is the point of educating us on the Bible if it's doesn't mean anything; if it really is fiction? This isn't an English Lit class; we aren't trying to understand what the authors meant, and what certain passages mean. We are trying to understand how people can believe what is complete rubbish.
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#6
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
I know the bible is ficiton! If you don't want to convert us Daystar why don't you just tell us to read the bible! (which I'm sure at least some of us have done already, I have not however, yet, it's not a priority for me atm).
I'll read the bible when I want to if I want to! And you say the bible is 'truth' that is not education. If you're just educating us about the bible then why do you keep claiming its true and keep saying X within it is evidence of God/Jesus/The Spirit etc. When its not!
I do understand its fiction! This is not what you are saying.
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#7
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
(November 7, 2008 at 2:52 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You make no sense. Firstly you say that we should consider the Bible as fiction (fine, it's what all of us do already), and then claim not to be here to convert us, merely educate us on the Bible.

I ask you, what is the point of educating us on the Bible if it's doesn't mean anything; if it really is fiction? This isn't an English Lit class; we aren't trying to understand what the authors meant, and what certain passages mean. We are trying to understand how people can believe what is complete rubbish.

What I want to do is explain what the authors meant and what certain passages mean. You are having trouble with that because you see it as a threat to what you believe. Evolution. You can't seem to do both.

I can explain to you how people can believe what is complete rubbish. Because they don't educate themselves. People believe what they want to believe.
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#8
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
(November 7, 2008 at 3:14 pm)Daystar Wrote:
(November 7, 2008 at 2:52 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You make no sense. Firstly you say that we should consider the Bible as fiction (fine, it's what all of us do already), and then claim not to be here to convert us, merely educate us on the Bible.

I ask you, what is the point of educating us on the Bible if it's doesn't mean anything; if it really is fiction? This isn't an English Lit class; we aren't trying to understand what the authors meant, and what certain passages mean. We are trying to understand how people can believe what is complete rubbish.

What I want to do is explain what the authors meant and what certain passages mean. You are having trouble with that because you see it as a threat to what you believe. Evolution. You can't seem to do both.

I can explain to you how people can believe what is complete rubbish. Because they don't educate themselves. People believe what they want to believe.
I've also heard you say that certain parts are evidence of God. And that the bible is truth. That is not educating us about the bible, that is you making claims that there are in fact no evidence of the truth of. You say its truth, thats not education, you are not teaching us fiction you are telling us about what you think is fact and what is evidence of God. This is not teaching us fiction.
You are not teaching fiction, you are making claims. Claims that there's no evidence of the truth of.
Therefore you are at least sometimes making claims based on faith.
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#9
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
(November 7, 2008 at 3:06 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I know the bible is ficiton! If you don't want to convert us Daystar why don't you just tell us to read the bible! (which I'm sure at least some of us have done already, I have not however, yet, it's not a priority for me atm).
I'll read the bible when I want to if I want to! And you say the bible is 'truth' that is not education. If you're just educating us about the bible then why do you keep claiming its true and keep saying X within it is evidence of God/Jesus/The Spirit etc. When its not!
I do understand its fiction! This is not what you are saying.

You are arguing this with me in a thread I introduced about alledged Biblical contradictions - Seeing God's face?! Why? Because God doesn't exist? Not the point. The point is that what the Bible said wasn't a contradiction.

If Atheists didn't believe in God but never discussed him at all I wouldn't be here. It is one thing to not believe - which I am not at all concerned about - and yet an entirely different thing to say something wrong about what you don't understand.
(November 7, 2008 at 3:17 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I've also heard you say that certain parts are evidence of God. And that the bible is truth. That is not educating us about the bible, that is claims based on the lack of evidence therefore claims based on faith.

Point taken. I will try not to do that anymore.
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#10
RE: Alleged Contradictions - Seeing God's Face
(November 7, 2008 at 3:18 pm)Daystar Wrote:
(November 7, 2008 at 3:06 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I know the bible is ficiton! If you don't want to convert us Daystar why don't you just tell us to read the bible! (which I'm sure at least some of us have done already, I have not however, yet, it's not a priority for me atm).
I'll read the bible when I want to if I want to! And you say the bible is 'truth' that is not education. If you're just educating us about the bible then why do you keep claiming its true and keep saying X within it is evidence of God/Jesus/The Spirit etc. When its not!
I do understand its fiction! This is not what you are saying.

You are arguing this with me in a thread I introduced about alledged Biblical contradictions - Seeing God's face?! Why? Because God doesn't exist? Not the point. The point is that what the Bible said wasn't a contradiction.

If Atheists didn't believe in God but never discussed him at all I wouldn't be here. It is one thing to not believe - which I am not at all concerned about - and yet an entirely different thing to say something wrong about what you don't understand.
(November 7, 2008 at 3:17 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I've also heard you say that certain parts are evidence of God. And that the bible is truth. That is not educating us about the bible, that is claims based on the lack of evidence therefore claims based on faith.

Point taken. I will try not to do that anymore.
Ok so you really are teaching us fiction sorry if I misunderstood you because you said the bible was truth/there was evidence of its claims to be true.
Actually though the thing is, why would I care if certain parts of the bible don't contradict when so much of it does and the fact certain parts don't contradict is not evidence of God?
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