Atheists only vote please: Do absolute MORAL truths exist? Is Rape ALWAYS "wrong"?

[The Reality Salesman01]

I'm skipping through quite a bit here so forgive me if it's already been said...

Absolute as in, even in the absence of conscious beings?

Does it even make sense to say that rape is wrong no matter the conditions? I don't think so. Especially if the conditions for rape, namely-beings capable of either giving or denying consent are nonexistent. Moral values seem entirely dependent on the existence of conscious beings. I can't think of a moral conflict worth reflecting on that doesnt in some way concern consciousness or a potential state of consciousness.
Before rape can even be considered to be "rape" it's often necessary to determine the alleged victim's/attacker's level of consciousness as well as any impairments that could have prevented them from giving what a reasonable person would consider consent. And if you're asking me whether or not it's always wrong to force another conscious or potentially conscious person to engage in sexual acts, against their will or without their consent, then the answer is yes. It's intuitively wrong because we recognize how valuable freedom is to ourselves. If I am able to recognize how important my freedom is to me, then I can understand why it is the right of no other person to take it away. To say that something is morally wrong is to recognize that there are better and worse qualities of life and that the outcome of the decision in question has negative consequences on the potential quality of life experienced by another conscious being. And in this case, rape is an assault on autonomy and freedom. It is wrong because those are extremely crucial aspects of what constitutes a good life, and the goal of making the right moral decisions is maximizing the state of well being which in turn leads to expanding the potential for a good life.

Making the wrong moral decisions and failing to recognize the value of freedom and autonomy lead to a very different quality of life and a brief look at history will point to objectively lower states of wellbeing. Questions of right and wrong may not always have a single right answer but, there are certainly better and worse answers to each question. In this case, it's not all that complicated.

I don't think many people would disagree with this. But, since the OP is asking this question with the goal of sorting it's answers into either a Theistic bin or an Atheistic bin, I get the feeling that there's an underlying question such as; Can Atheist say rape is wrong if they don't have a God to tell them? Hopefully I've answered both questions. By the way, the question in reverse is an interesting one as well. If The Bible said it was pious to have slaves, would they consider it to be so? Euthyphro and many others have tried to wiggle out of this one LONG before Jesus came along. I find questions like these to be cute attempts to shift a burden...

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Is it true even if society deemed that rape was perfectly acceptable?

This question is irrelevant and I just wanted to clarify why.

"Society" is the entirety of it's individual members, and any one position held by any fraction of the members is not right or wrong based only on the amount of people that hold it. The amount of people who believe something says nothing about the validity of their belief.

[GrandizerII]

Sorry, but I just don't see any point to what seems to be appeal to emotion? Hopefully, you aren't speaking as a mod and only just a regular member with this post. I'd hate to start seeing certain topics being banned for discussion just because it triggers certain members. I think it is ok to debate the moral nature of rape so long as no one is encouraging rape here.

(bold mine)

A mod and admin on this forum is just like any other member, is entitled to discuss as any regular member, please do not question someone's hability to stay objective. Keep your failings, to yourself.

Why, may I ask, did you brought up Rexbeccarox's modship? Look at the bold of mine on your post. That is where you are wrong.

Why calling an appeal to emotion, aren't you doing just the same

Disclaimer: Not speaking as an admin, just calling out the asshole in the room.

If you want to point out where I went wrong, do it without insulting me like this.

[rexbeccarox]

Maybe you shouldn't post like an asshole, then. I don't see an apology yet from you for questioning my objectivity.

[GrandizerII]

Sorry, but I just don't see any point to what seems to be appeal to emotion? Hopefully, you aren't speaking as a mod and only just a regular member with this post. I'd hate to start seeing certain topics being banned for discussion just because it triggers certain members. I think it is ok to debate the moral nature of rape so long as no one is encouraging rape here.

Excuse me? Here, we are regular members first and mods second. I am allowed to express any opinion I want here, just as anyone else is. Did you see any threat to shut the thread down or attempt to censor this discussion? No? Right.

Appeal to emotion? Fine. I'm guilty when it comes to rape. I've been raped myself, and now I'm a volunteer advocate for sexual assault victims. I see raped people all the time. I'm the one who sits with them, usually immediately following their rapes, while they're drilled by a cop and examined by a forensic nurse. When people are actually discussing whether rape can ever be morally right, I have a big problem with it, and it's easy to lose respect for anyone who says it can; whether you're going to call it objective or subjective, I don't give a shit. It's wrong, and anyone who says otherwise can go ahead and fuck off. Yeah, I'm emotional.

Nothing wrong with feeling unpleasant emotions regarding rape. I'm not trying to deprive you of that. Really sorry for what you went through.

It's just no one here is saying they believe it's right. So when anyone here says it's not objectively wrong, this is only because the nature of morality itself is being questioned as objective. At the end of the day, rape is wrong for most people. People should have the right to express philosophical opinions on morality without being shamed about it.

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Maybe you shouldn't post like an asshole, then. I don't see an apology yet from you for questioning my objectivity.

No, you don't get to "demand" an apology from me. I apologize when I have to.

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Sigh ... I better stop posting in these forums. It's not for me.

[IanHulett]

I think I've seen enough. I think this posts title should be renamed to include a trigger warning.

[rexbeccarox]

Excuse me? Here, we are regular members first and mods second. I am allowed to express any opinion I want here, just as anyone else is. Did you see any threat to shut the thread down or attempt to censor this discussion? No? Right.

Appeal to emotion? Fine. I'm guilty when it comes to rape. I've been raped myself, and now I'm a volunteer advocate for sexual assault victims. I see raped people all the time. I'm the one who sits with them, usually immediately following their rapes, while they're drilled by a cop and examined by a forensic nurse. When people are actually discussing whether rape can ever be morally right, I have a big problem with it, and it's easy to lose respect for anyone who says it can; whether you're going to call it objective or subjective, I don't give a shit. It's wrong, and anyone who says otherwise can go ahead and fuck off. Yeah, I'm emotional.

Nothing wrong with feeling unpleasant emotions regarding rape. I'm not trying to deprive you of that. Really sorry for what you went through.

It's just no one here is saying they believe it's right. So when anyone here says it's not objectively wrong, this is only because the nature of morality itself is being questioned as objective. At the end of the day, rape is wrong for most people. People should have the right to express philosophical opinions on morality without being shamed about it.

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Maybe you shouldn't post like an asshole, then. I don't see an apology yet from you for questioning my objectivity.

No, you don't get to "demand" an apology from me. I apologize when I have to.

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Sigh ... I better stop posting in these forums. It's not for me.

(bold mine)

So you get to dictate how other people post in a forum, but the same doesn't go for you? You're right: this isn't for you.

[GrandizerII]

Nothing wrong with feeling unpleasant emotions regarding rape. I'm not trying to deprive you of that. Really sorry for what you went through.

It's just no one here is saying they believe it's right. So when anyone here says it's not objectively wrong, this is only because the nature of morality itself is being questioned as objective. At the end of the day, rape is wrong for most people. People should have the right to express philosophical opinions on morality without being shamed about it.

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No, you don't get to "demand" an apology from me. I apologize when I have to.

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Sigh ... I better stop posting in these forums. It's not for me.

(bold mine)

So you get to dictate how other people post in a forum, but the same doesn't go for you? You're right: this isn't for you.

Thanks for the unwelcoming attitude. I'll leave now, didn't come here to get insulted.

[Brian37]

Excuse me? Here, we are regular members first and mods second. I am allowed to express any opinion I want here, just as anyone else is. Did you see any threat to shut the thread down or attempt to censor this discussion? No? Right.

Appeal to emotion? Fine. I'm guilty when it comes to rape. I've been raped myself, and now I'm a volunteer advocate for sexual assault victims. I see raped people all the time. I'm the one who sits with them, usually immediately following their rapes, while they're drilled by a cop and examined by a forensic nurse. When people are actually discussing whether rape can ever be morally right, I have a big problem with it, and it's easy to lose respect for anyone who says it can; whether you're going to call it objective or subjective, I don't give a shit. It's wrong, and anyone who says otherwise can go ahead and fuck off. Yeah, I'm emotional.

Nothing wrong with feeling unpleasant emotions regarding rape. I'm not trying to deprive you of that. Really sorry for what you went through.

It's just no one here is saying they believe it's right. So when anyone here says it's not objectively wrong, this is only because the nature of morality itself is being questioned as objective. At the end of the day, rape is wrong for most people. People should have the right to express philosophical opinions on morality without being shamed about it.

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Maybe you shouldn't post like an asshole, then. I don't see an apology yet from you for questioning my objectivity.

No, you don't get to "demand" an apology from me. I apologize when I have to.

NO rape is wrong, in evolution because even in other primates and mammals we see the victims of it react negatively to the act. It is a natural reaction to react negatively to a violation of your space and or body. Your body is your resource and you evolve to gain control over that resource, when that resource is violated you cease to have control.

It is only inconsequential to the totality of all of evolution. It does create reproduction, but it is still and act of force and mammals and primates which we are related to react negatively to acts of force. Rape is one act of force. Cooperation and empathy are the other aspect of our species and those create lager numbers that reject force to protect the tribe and or the individual.

[rexbeccarox]

See ya!

[The Reality Salesman01]

No, no, I didn't ask you what's an alternative for would-be rapist to indulge themselves in instead.

You said rape is wrong no matter what society says ... and your reason was because it affects those who are raped, right? What within the nature of this so-called objective morality dictates that you only consider how the raped feel about this? What is the reason you won't consider the rapist's feelings about rape in spite of you implying that morality is objective (and not subjective)?

Not sure if I'm making sense with my question.

I think I understand what you are asking, while I'm not consigning any of the previous opinions, I think I'd like to take a shot at this.


If we are talking about morally rights and wrongs, I think it's important that we agree that for a society to thrive, the well being of all its members must be taken into consideration. Not in a utilitarian sense, but simply acknowledging that the wellbeing of people is what matters, right?

Surely you would agree that at least on an individual basis, every reasonable person wants to maximize their own well being.

(Psychological disorders to the side for a moment)

Are we in agreement so far?

If so, then clearly there are things we could decide to do that would improve our mental states, and things that would cause them to deteriorate. I'll wait...