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November 2, 2014 at 4:49 pm (This post was last modified: November 2, 2014 at 4:55 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(November 1, 2014 at 8:56 pm)dyresand Wrote: Many Christians and theists will disagree but ill say it anyways.
you need Atheists and agnostics and people in general who have no faith or belief in a god. This is saying a lot, could you imagine how the modern world would look like just imagine that there was no such thing as atheists and agnostics the US during ww2 since you claimed its an christian country would have helped Hitler. Why we didn't do it because we are secular we know that what hitler is doing is wrong but biblically its alright and justified.
Quote:Some have also included the deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 1932–1933 famine among the victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others, or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.
Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths—6 million from famine and 4 million from other causes—are attributable to the regime, with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, Gulag camps, deportations and other causes. Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.
Quote:The official statistic is 20 million deaths, as given by Hu Yaobang. Yang Jisheng, a former Xinhua News Agency reporter who had privileged access and connections available to no other scholars, estimates a death toll of 36 million. Frank Dikötter estimates that there were at least 45 million premature deaths attributable to the Great Leap Forward from 1958 to 1962. Various other sources have put the figure at between 20 and 46 million.
So between Stalin and Mao, were looking at a total of 65 million people dead.... Sounds like a utopia.
To put it in perspective, Hitler's body count was 6 million...
November 2, 2014 at 10:03 pm (This post was last modified: November 2, 2014 at 10:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Are we to assign some significance to the relative number of the dead once it crosses the threshold into millions (or tens of millions, or hundreds of millions, collectively or individually)? What are we looking for perspective on here?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(November 2, 2014 at 10:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Are we to assign some significance to the relative number of the dead once it crosses the threshold into millions (or tens of millions, or hundreds of millions, collectively or individually)? What are we looking for perspective on here?
What are you saying? One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic?
November 2, 2014 at 10:35 pm (This post was last modified: November 2, 2014 at 10:35 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I'm saying that I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. But..feel free to focus on things that you can imagine me to have said as though they were relevant. Will my participation be required?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(November 2, 2014 at 10:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm saying that I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. But..feel free to focus on things that you can imagine me to have said as though they were relevant. Will my participation be required?
If you read the original post, then it's pretty clear what I'm saying. Feel free to clarify what you meant by:
(November 2, 2014 at 10:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Are we to assign some significance to the relative number of the dead once it crosses the threshold into millions (or tens of millions, or hundreds of millions, collectively or individually)?
I think the point is that if we're trying to argue atheism v. christianity by saying "well, [christian despot] killed 10 million people but [atheist despot] killed 20 million people" then we're missing the point
How will we know, when the morning comes, we are still human? - 2D
Don't worry, my friend. If this be the end, then so shall it be.
That's a good observation, once someone takes total power it always becomes corrupted, its just human nature, and what will be the religion in charge, or the one to have the most say, and this I believe would work with the secular also, human nature is human nature.
November 3, 2014 at 12:28 am (This post was last modified: November 3, 2014 at 12:29 am by Jenny A.)
(November 2, 2014 at 10:27 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(November 2, 2014 at 10:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Are we to assign some significance to the relative number of the dead once it crosses the threshold into millions (or tens of millions, or hundreds of millions, collectively or individually)? What are we looking for perspective on here?
What are you saying? One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic?
If despot A and despot B would both being willing to put a billion people to death were it expedient to do so, the fact that A manages to do in five million while B only squeaks in with a million does not make B any more moral than A, just less efficient or perhaps lacking in opportunity. Both despots are equally depraved.
That is why modern despots have killed more people than those in the past, more efficient means, and more available people to kill.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
November 3, 2014 at 12:34 am (This post was last modified: November 3, 2014 at 12:36 am by Huggy Bear.)
(November 2, 2014 at 10:49 pm)TRJF Wrote: I think the point is that if we're trying to argue atheism v. christianity by saying "well, [christian despot] killed 10 million people but [atheist despot] killed 20 million people" then we're missing the point
Actually I would argue that there aren't any "Christians" with a high body count.
Quote:Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
An apple tree can't claim to be an apple tree if it produces oranges.
If a person claims to be a "pacifist" but has a body count in the millions, is he really a pacifist?
Quote:Matthew 19:18
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
So why then, is one considered a Christian when he clearly does not follow the teachings of Christ?
(November 3, 2014 at 12:28 am)Jenny A Wrote:
(November 2, 2014 at 10:27 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: What are you saying? One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic?
If despot A and despot B would both being willing to put a billion people to death were it expedient to do so, the fact that A manages to do in five million while B only squeaks in with a million does not make B any more moral than A, just less efficient or perhaps lacking in opportunity. Both despots are equally depraved.
That is why modern despots have killed more people than those in the past, more efficient means, and more available people to kill.
