If

[Little Rik]

First off, I'm not interested in purposely injuring myself. Second, you still making the same argument-from-ignorance fallacy. You have to show that the brain cannot do it. You haven't not done so.

After a million or so years that man is man i never heard of anyone who under normal circumstances doesn't feel pain when they got hurt but again maybe in the next million years someone may not feel any pain so i will let you know.

So your going to appeal to your special knowledge. I always wondered how you would know the consciousness of people who are long dead. Are you suppose to be physic? What I mentioned can easily be varified while your claims are wishful thinking, nothing more.

Easy done surgen.
Suppose now i am X years old and i remember what i was feeling when i was 15 years old.
In those time there were no computers, no color tv (i guess) no mobile phones and so on but when my dad bought a pushbike i was up in heaven.
In those times not many people were lucky to own a pushbike but now what i would do with a pushbike?
Now i need a car to move around so what was paradise in the past is nothing these days but again in the future a car will be nothing because new mean of transport will be created so from here we can understand that consciousness is always related to the time in which we are living and there is a correlation between past and future.

I do explore where my happiness and peace of mind comes from. It comes from my friends, a good night sleep, interesting stories, and sometimes arguing with idiots. But what you want everyone to do is plainly stupid. You don't accept something just because it sounds cool. If that was the case, I would be visiting New York city to see all the super heroes.

Did you remember the quiz i gave in order to see whether you got peace of mind or not?
Try to remember surgen.

Scientific evidence is a testible, repeatable experiment that gives consistent results independent of the user. Testinomials are not repeatable and defineatly not consistent. They also are heavily dependent on the experimentor. Hense they are not scientific evidence.

Your so called full picture is incomplete.
We got evidence in the field of physical science and we also got evidence in the field of intuitional science.
All of them can be demonstrated.

Please demonstrated how cannot explain why some people don't feel pain. Before you just assume that is the case.

Your English is strange.
Wouldn't be better to say.........Please demonstrated why some people don't feel pain......
Anyway you can see with your own eyes. Just go and see one of these festival.

All scientific hypothesis are falsifiable, including the null hypothesis. If you cannot create an experiment that falsifies the null hypothesis, then I don't need to believe in anything extra. You want us to first except your hypothesis and then find evidence for it. This is fundamentally backwards of how science works. Hense, it is not scientific, but pseudoscientific.

You make it very very complicated.
All you have to do in order to see whether this physical-mental dimension bring or not peace of mind is whether it give a sense of total satisfaction or not.
Is this so complicated to understand?

[Davka]

First off, I'm not interested in purposely injuring myself. Second, you still making the same argument-from-ignorance fallacy. You have to show that the brain cannot do it. You haven't not done so.

After a million or so years that man is man i never heard of anyone who under normal circumstances doesn't feel pain when they got hurt but again maybe in the next million years someone may not feel any pain so i will let you know.

"I never heard of it" is the TEXTBOOK Argument From Ignorance.

Here, read this. You won't be ignorant any more:

Study Gives First Glimpse Of Human
Brain's Natural Painkiller System In Action

All you have to do in order to see whether this physical-mental dimension bring or not peace of mind is whether it give a sense of total satisfaction or not.

Irrelevant. Subjective experience is evidence of nothing you are claiming. Lots of things can give a "sense of total satisfaction." Or "peace of mind." This tells us nothing about the mind-body-consciousness question. All it tells us is that certain chemicals in the brain produce euphoric states.

[Surgenator]

First off, I'm not interested in purposely injuring myself. Second, you still making the same argument-from-ignorance fallacy. You have to show that the brain cannot do it. You haven't not done so.

After a million or so years that man is man i never heard of anyone who under normal circumstances doesn't feel pain when they got hurt but again maybe in the next million years someone may not feel any pain so i will let you know.

Exactly, you "never heard of anyone" not there isn't a natural explanation. You don't know of a natural explanation. This doesn't mean the natural explanation doesn't exist. Constantly showing your ignorance on the matter doesn't make you right.

So your going to appeal to your special knowledge. I always wondered how you would know the consciousness of people who are long dead. Are you suppose to be physic? What I mentioned can easily be varified while your claims are wishful thinking, nothing more.

Easy done surgen.
Suppose now i am X years old and i remember what i was feeling when i was 15 years old.
In those time there were no computers, no color tv (i guess) no mobile phones and so on but when my dad bought a pushbike i was up in heaven.
In those times not many people were lucky to own a pushbike but now what i would do with a pushbike?
Now i need a car to move around so what was paradise in the past is nothing these days but again in the future a car will be nothing because new mean of transport will be created so from here we can understand that consciousness is always related to the time in which we are living and there is a correlation between past and future.

I fail to see how your story has anything to do with you knowing what other people's consciouness were. Your story is about your happy feelings, not someone elses who you haven't meet.

I do explore where my happiness and peace of mind comes from. It comes from my friends, a good night sleep, interesting stories, and sometimes arguing with idiots. But what you want everyone to do is plainly stupid. You don't accept something just because it sounds cool. If that was the case, I would be visiting New York city to see all the super heroes.

Did you remember the quiz i gave in order to see whether you got peace of mind or not?
Try to remember surgen.

Like you are an authority on peace of mind. Plus, nice dodge.

Scientific evidence is a testible, repeatable experiment that gives consistent results independent of the user. Testinomials are not repeatable and defineatly not consistent. They also are heavily dependent on the experimentor. Hense they are not scientific evidence.

Your so called full picture is incomplete.
We got evidence in the field of physical science and we also got evidence in the field of intuitional science.
All of them can be demonstrated.

"Intuitional science" is known by it's other name, pseudoscience. Please demonstrate "intuitional science." Show how it would go through the scientific meathod to prove a claim.

Please demonstrated how cannot explain why some people don't feel pain. Before you just assume that is the case.

Your English is strange.
Wouldn't be better to say.........Please demonstrated why some people don't feel pain......
Anyway you can see with your own eyes. Just go and see one of these festival.

I'm a foreigner that is learning english. What I meant to say was "Please demonstrated how there isn't a natural explanation for people who don't feel pain."

All scientific hypothesis are falsifiable, including the null hypothesis. If you cannot create an experiment that falsifies the null hypothesis, then I don't need to believe in anything extra. You want us to first except your hypothesis and then find evidence for it. This is fundamentally backwards of how science works. Hense, it is not scientific, but pseudoscientific.

You make it very very complicated.
All you have to do in order to see whether this physical-mental dimension bring or not peace of mind is whether it give a sense of total satisfaction or not.
Is this so complicated to understand?

Peace-of-mind is NOT an objective standard. It is completely subjective and prone to errors. For example, a person who believes in santa clause has a higher peace of mind than someone who doesn't. Who is right? The person who doesn't believe in santa clause. Also peace-of-mind would FAIL the consistency requirement and testibility requirement.

[Angrboda]

Try yourself to perforate your body with a knife or something else and then tell your brain to not let you feel any pain and to close the cut as soon as you take the knife out.

You've been corrected on this once already. The article you quote even explains how there are scars that result from the practice. But you didn't listen, did you? It goes in one ear and out the other. Who would trust such a poor learner to possess any kind of wisdom? You are a wishful thinker who believes what you want to believe, even when it's pointed out to you in black and white how it's not true. You are worthless for any kind of discernment, yogic or otherwise.
The article that you linked to clearly says, "For weeks after the festival I see local guys with fresh scars! The scar tissue is often quite obvious especially on those who have been participating for many years."

Actually is you that doesn't listen.
If you go back many month ago when we were talking about this subject i already explained why.
The people who participate in these festivals are normal people who during the year most of them eat meat and don't really do any meditation.
They follow Hinduism which involve a bit of chanting mantras and some prayers.
Once a year they want to prove themselves that God is with them so what they do?
3 weeks before the festival they only eat vegetarian food in order to clean up their body-mind from impurities and at the same time they chant mantras in the temples and sex is also off during that time in order to focus on the divinity within.
When the time come their mind is therefore under control and their consciousness take over but here we got to understand that not everybody reach an high stage of consciousness so in some of them the mind still has some influence over them and that is why some of them feel a bit of pain and some scars are still visible while other feel no pain and no scars are visible so again you show that you haven't got the full picture of what really happen.

a) You have no way of knowing any of this. It's just a bunch of made-up garbage.
b) It's all just a smokescreen for the fact that, once again, you have no evidence to show for your claims.
c) The evidence which we do have is contrary to your claim.

Your "explanation" is worthless.

[Little Rik]

Here, read this. You won't be ignorant any more....

I read that but you didn't read one of my previous post in which i said that what the brain can do is limited while what the consciousness can do is unlimited.
A small cut usually heal by itself.
A bigger cut may require stitches.
And a huge cut may lead to the grave so from this any person with a little bit of brain can easy understand the brain and body limitations but of course this doesn't apply to you.

All you have to do in order to see whether this physical-mental dimension bring or not peace of mind is whether it give a sense of total satisfaction or not.

Irrelevant. Subjective experience is evidence of nothing you are claiming. Lots of things can give a "sense of total satisfaction." Or "peace of mind." This tells us nothing about the mind-body-consciousness question. All it tells us is that certain chemicals in the brain produce euphoric states.

Wrong again Davka.
There are a lot of things that can give satisfaction or your so called total satisfaction but as usual you haven't got the full picture.
I have been talking about PERMANENT satisfaction not casual or temporary satisfaction which can not be achieved by artificial means and which only last a certain time with side effect by the way.
There is also a more natural natural way to achieve some sort of satisfaction.
Some people seem satisfied but again their degree of satisfaction is limited to what their brain can deliver which can not be compared with what the consciousness can.
Time and time again you guys forget to understand that the brain like every physical-mental thing in this universe is bound by limitations.

---

Actually is you that doesn't listen.
If you go back many month ago when we were talking about this subject i already explained why.
The people who participate in these festivals are normal people who during the year most of them eat meat and don't really do any meditation.
They follow Hinduism which involve a bit of chanting mantras and some prayers.
Once a year they want to prove themselves that God is with them so what they do?
3 weeks before the festival they only eat vegetarian food in order to clean up their body-mind from impurities and at the same time they chant mantras in the temples and sex is also off during that time in order to focus on the divinity within.
When the time come their mind is therefore under control and their consciousness take over but here we got to understand that not everybody reach an high stage of consciousness so in some of them the mind still has some influence over them and that is why some of them feel a bit of pain and some scars are still visible while other feel no pain and no scars are visible so again you show that you haven't got the full picture of what really happen.

a) You have no way of knowing any of this. It's just a bunch of made-up garbage.
b) It's all just a smokescreen for the fact that, once again, you have no evidence to show for your claims.
c) The evidence which we do have is contrary to your claim.
Your "explanation" is worthless.

Actually i have been there and see that with my very eyes but again since when physical science can understand what is not physical!

[Little Rik]

[quote='Riketto' pid='851441' dateline='1421766193']
After a million or so years that man is man i never heard of anyone who under normal circumstances doesn't feel pain when they got hurt but again maybe in the next million years someone may not feel any pain so i will let you know.

Exactly, you "never heard of anyone" not there isn't a natural explanation. You don't know of a natural explanation. This doesn't mean the natural explanation doesn't exist. Constantly showing your ignorance on the matter doesn't make you right.

You try your very best to twist or to ignore my point but you fail again.
The issue was about feeling pain under normal circumstances and not feeling pain when the brain is off as the consciousness take over.
Your ignoring my point doesn't make you any smarter. hock:

Easy done surgen.
Suppose now i am X years old and i remember what i was feeling when i was 15 years old.
In those time there were no computers, no color tv (i guess) no mobile phones and so on but when my dad bought a pushbike i was up in heaven.
In those times not many people were lucky to own a pushbike but now what i would do with a pushbike?
Now i need a car to move around so what was paradise in the past is nothing these days but again in the future a car will be nothing because new mean of transport will be created so from here we can understand that consciousness is always related to the time in which we are living and there is a correlation between past and future.

I fail to see how your story has anything to do with you knowing what other people's consciouness were. Your story is about your happy feelings, not someone elses who you haven't meet.

The story show that there is a correlation between past and future so nothing really change as far as happiness and peace of mind is concern.
Your problem surgen is that you fail to understand that technological advancement is just a way to stay afloat not progress.
The monitor that right now you are looking at is delivering you radiation to your eyes but you never knew it, did you surgen?
I can demonstrate that the positive ALWAYS come with the negative but you can not show me that the positive is never followed by the negative so here you fail again.

Did you remember the quiz i gave in order to see whether you got peace of mind or not?
Try to remember surgen.

Like you are an authority on peace of mind. Plus, nice dodge.

This only show that your memory is not that good.

"Intuitional science" is known by it's other name, pseudoscience. Please demonstrate "intuitional science." Show how it would go through the scientific meathod to prove a claim.

By practicing you can get the evidence.
Being an internal experience you can only get the evidence within unlike any external material-physical test which can be proved externally.
I just wonder whether you know the difference between internal and external.

I'm a foreigner that is learning english. What I meant to say was "Please demonstrated how there isn't a natural explanation for people who don't feel pain."

What is natural to you?
Maybe you are convinced that the natural is only what can be seen, touch, smell and so on and anything else is not natural.
I had the same understanding when i was a child but then i grew up and now i believe that the consciousness is a lot more natural than the physical-mental side so well before you pretend a demonstration you should understand the role that the brain play and the role that the consciousness play in order to understand what is natural and what is not.

Peace-of-mind is NOT an objective standard. It is completely subjective and prone to errors. For example, a person who believes in santa clause has a higher peace of mind than someone who doesn't. Who is right? The person who doesn't believe in santa clause. Also peace-of-mind would FAIL the consistency requirement and testibility requirement.

Peace of mind come in degrees.
Suppose the degree go from 1 to 10.
And also suppose that 1 peace of mind is not permanent and 10 is permanent.
And also suppose that 1 to 3 or 5 can be achieved with the mind but 5 to 10 require an high degree of consciousness.
The variants are many.
As far as testibility here once again you only need to experience for yourself.
It not transferable.

[Davka]

Here, read this. You won't be ignorant any more....

I read that but you didn't read one of my previous post in which i said that what the brain can do is limited while what the consciousness can do is unlimited.

Unsupported claim. You have yet to demonstrate that there is any such thing as "the consciousness." You certainly have not demonstrated that 'the consciousness" can do anything.

Cling to your ignorance if it makes you more comfortable, but don't pretend there's any real-world foundation for your personal opinions.

[Angrboda]

a) You have no way of knowing any of this. It's just a bunch of made-up garbage.
b) It's all just a smokescreen for the fact that, once again, you have no evidence to show for your claims.
c) The evidence which we do have is contrary to your claim.
Your "explanation" is worthless.

Actually i have been there and see that with my very eyes but again since when physical science can understand what is not physical!

This isn't acceptable evidence either.

[Surgenator]

After a million or so years that man is man i never heard of anyone who under normal circumstances doesn't feel pain when they got hurt but again maybe in the next million years someone may not feel any pain so i will let you know.

Exactly, you "never heard of anyone" not there isn't a natural explanation. You don't know of a natural explanation. This doesn't mean the natural explanation doesn't exist. Constantly showing your ignorance on the matter doesn't make you right.

You try your very best to twist or to ignore my point but you fail again.
The issue was about feeling pain under normal circumstances and not feeling pain when the brain is off as the consciousness take over.
Your ignoring my point doesn't make you any smarter. hock:

I'm arguing that your approach to the "problem" you've observed is logically flawed. You have admitted and demonstrated that medical science is not your forte. So please stop lecturing us on stuff you clearly don't know about, and get off your ignorant ass and research the subject yourself. I'm not going to waste my time doing the research for you.

Easy done surgen.
Suppose now i am X years old and i remember what i was feeling when i was 15 years old.
In those time there were no computers, no color tv (i guess) no mobile phones and so on but when my dad bought a pushbike i was up in heaven.
In those times not many people were lucky to own a pushbike but now what i would do with a pushbike?
Now i need a car to move around so what was paradise in the past is nothing these days but again in the future a car will be nothing because new mean of transport will be created so from here we can understand that consciousness is always related to the time in which we are living and there is a correlation between past and future.

I fail to see how your story has anything to do with you knowing what other people's consciouness were. Your story is about your happy feelings, not someone elses who you haven't meet.

The story show that there is a correlation between past and future so nothing really change as far as happiness and peace of mind is concern.
Your problem surgen is that you fail to understand that technological advancement is just a way to stay afloat not progress.
The monitor that right now you are looking at is delivering you radiation to your eyes but you never knew it, did you surgen?
I can demonstrate that the positive ALWAYS come with the negative but you can not show me that the positive is never followed by the negative so here you fail again.

Feelings are qualitative not quantitative. You cannot declare no overall change occured from a qualitative measure. You need quantitative for that. I've previously listed some quantitative measures like lifespan and luxury time. Those have increased over the years which counter your bullshit claim.

Did you remember the quiz i gave in order to see whether you got peace of mind or not?
Try to remember surgen.

Like you are an authority on peace of mind. Plus, nice dodge.

This only show that your memory is not that good.

I repeat, like you are an authority on peace of mind.

"Intuitional science" is known by it's other name, pseudoscience. Please demonstrate "intuitional science." Show how it would go through the scientific meathod to prove a claim.

By practicing you can get the evidence.
Being an internal experience you can only get the evidence within unlike any external material-physical test which can be proved externally.
I just wonder whether you know the difference between internal and external.

I still wonder if you know the difference between a delusion and the spirit realm. Is your spirit realm only internal or does it exist outside you head? FYI, delusions are also internal and don't exist outside your head.

I'm a foreigner that is learning english. What I meant to say was "Please demonstrated how there isn't a natural explanation for people who don't feel pain."

What is natural to you?
Maybe you are convinced that the natural is only what can be seen, touch, smell and so on and anything else is not natural.
I had the same understanding when i was a child but then i grew up and now i believe that the consciousness is a lot more natural than the physical-mental side so well before you pretend a demonstration you should understand the role that the brain play and the role that the consciousness play in order to understand what is natural and what is not.

Natural world is the material world and its interactions with itself. My definition is not dependent on the five senses but dependent on the observable universe. Also, it is your job to demonstate that consciousness is NOT a byproduct of the brain since you are making that claim.

Peace-of-mind is NOT an objective standard. It is completely subjective and prone to errors. For example, a person who believes in santa clause has a higher peace of mind than someone who doesn't. Who is right? The person who doesn't believe in santa clause. Also peace-of-mind would FAIL the consistency requirement and testibility requirement.

Peace of mind come in degrees.
Suppose the degree go from 1 to 10.
And also suppose that 1 peace of mind is not permanent and 10 is permanent.
And also suppose that 1 to 3 or 5 can be achieved with the mind but 5 to 10 require an high degree of consciousness.
The variants are many.

Your trying to quantify a qualitative measure and failing miserably. Do you feel like your peace of mind is at 5, or does it feel more like an 8.

As far as testibility here once again you only need to experience for yourself.
It not transferable.

If it is dependent on the experimentor, it is NOT scientific nor rational. Also, you didn't mention at all on how it can be falsified.

[Little Rik]

Unsupported claim. You have yet to demonstrate that there is any such thing as "the consciousness." You certainly have not demonstrated that 'the consciousness" can do anything. Cling to your ignorance if it makes you more comfortable, but don't pretend there's any real-world foundation for your personal opinions.

I point the finger towards NDEs and towards the Hindus festival in which people do not feel pain as the consciousness take over but instead to look at these evidences you look at my finger and then say that nothing is there.
The same thing happen with the believe or not of God.
There is plenty of evidence that this universe can not possibly run by itself but you keep on dreaming that it can.
There is really nothing i can do other than let you keep dreaming for the next hundred lives until the wake up and grow up call take over your mental lethargy.

---

Actually i have been there and see that with my very eyes but again since when physical science can understand what is not physical!

This isn't acceptable evidence either.

It takes time rasu.
Sooner or later physical science will find out the non physical entities that form the smaller particles so far discovered.
I just wonder what will you say or do that day.
It will be very funny to see your face.

---

I'm arguing that your approach to the "problem" you've observed is logically flawed. You have admitted and demonstrated that medical science is not your forte. So please stop lecturing us on stuff you clearly don't know about, and get off your ignorant ass and research the subject yourself. I'm not going to waste my time doing the research for you.

As far as medical science can not understand why some people do not feel pain and the cut seal by itself leaving no or little scars than why should i get more knowledgable in medical science when medical science is not capable to understand these things?
You are very funny surgen.

Feelings are qualitative not quantitative. You cannot declare no overall change occured from a qualitative measure. You need quantitative for that. I've previously listed some quantitative measures like lifespan and luxury time. Those have increased over the years which counter your bullshit claim.

For Christ sake surgen stop being funny.
Have you have ever seen the Hollywood celebrities after they do surgery in order to look young?
Their faces look like shit.
Give me a brake mate.

I still wonder if you know the difference between a delusion and the spirit realm. Is your spirit realm only internal or does it exist outside you head? FYI, delusions are also internal and don't exist outside your head.

Delusions last for sometime not for ever and beside they don't come hand in hand with happiness.

Natural world is the material world and its interactions with itself. My definition is not dependent on the five senses but dependent on the observable universe.

Your statement need evidence surgen.
Where is the evidence that this universe is the only thing existing and therefore is the only natural thing?

Also, it is your job to demonstate that consciousness is NOT a byproduct of the brain since you are making that claim.

It is well known that what the brain can do is LIMITED so how it is possible for something limited to create something UNLIMITED like the consciousness?

Your trying to quantify a qualitative measure and failing miserably. Do you feel like your peace of mind is at 5, or does it feel more like an 8.

It is well established that to get any sort of degree you start from the bottom so it is natural that it takes time to reach the top but i suppose that you must have reach the top artificially.

If it is dependent on the experimentor, it is NOT scientific nor rational. Also, you didn't mention at all on how it can be falsified.

Why would you want to try to falsified some established evidence that give peace of mind and happiness in order to see whether it is true or not?